I hope I don’t insult anyone I work with who reads this, because they’re all wonderful people and I enjoying hanging out with them. But for me, I realized a long time ago that I’m happier if my “friends” are different from my “work friends”.
At least in the NYC startup scene, I’ve noticed a tendency for coworkers to spend a lot of time together outside the office. I used to do it, too. Not just the occasional Thursday evening beer, but every weekend, or even several times a week. They treat it as their main social circle.
I’m a programmer, but coincidentally most of my friends are artists. I enjoy that they’re not particularly invested in what I do, but I still feel appreciated when they sometimes ask about “how the internet works” or “what really is coding anyways?” I can be a “tech guy” but not make it my entire identity.
Overall, I think it’s better that when I’m with friends I get to talk about the other aspects of life, and take a break from being constantly tech-focused. And, of course, get my mind off of work for once!
I roughly agree but I think your point presumes that is easier to have friends outside of work. It's a yes/no heavily dependent on your circumstances.
I grew up and went to college in Massachusetts, and now live in NYC metro area. Many of the folks I count as part of my good friends or even best friends aren't nearby. So my friendships with them rely heavily on group texts, and infrequent in-person gatherings.
But like lots of folks here, I worked a LOT during my 20s/earlier 30s and spent a lot of time in the office with coworkers, and subsequently a lot outside the office with coworkers. Four of my colleagues from the company I worked at from age 23-29 were groomsmen in my wedding. Two of those folks live in NYC metro with me. We're still very close. Work/industry-related conversation isn't exhausting with them because they're some of the smartest folks I know (again: in the same industry).
I sometimes find friendships outside of this context exhausting. Some people don't have interesting lives or careers or both! Work provides a logical conduit to establish a friendship or quickly decide if someone won't be a friend.
I've ended up with kind of a middle ground: A good number of my friends are ex-coworkers. We wouldn't consider each other as friends when we were there, for various good reasons, but as ex-employees, you share the bond that you all "survived that mess."
I believe it is good to build up a strong socialization fabric, woven out of people who you don't spend all working-day with. We have a "neighborhood dads" group that cuts across professions but tend to have age in common. You can have a hobby group that cuts across all kinds of demographic and political views, but is focused on a single activity. If I lose or quit my job, I don't also suddenly lose daily contact with my friends. If your only friends are workmates, that's more of a single string that can snap rather than a strong woven fabric.
I can definitely relate to being closer to former colleagues on the other side of us both working at the same company/division/team/whatever. I think it's maybe that thing like when you run into someone you went to camp or high school or whatever with in a foreign city— even if you weren't that close at the time, it's a jumping off point for bypassing that flirtatious pre-friendship stage where you don't actually talk about much of anything, and get right to the good stuff (and no, not just talking about romantic relationships; a lot of friendships start this way too, and many never leave it).
Counterpoint: I have made some of my best friends through work.
None of us work at the same company, but the friendship endured 15 years.
If you are on your mid 20s, my advice is to make as many friends as you can and experience as many things as you can.
Start working hard for your career and promotions only on your late 20s.
My other advice: Don’t take work personal. Just think it as long term contract (2-3-4 years) which eventually will end. Don’t fret or worry too much about the management’s decisions. It is something you can’t control. If a work place is becoming not friendly and more toxic, feel free to detach and go to a place that fits you better.
People they get involved too much emotionally to a job have harder time with this.
Being professional means you are there to get a job done (and not for validation), and don’t make work the center of your life. That doesn’t mean that you can’t make friend there.
I've always thought this too, however in practice it seems difficult to implement. I have friends from childhood that I visit, but they don't live near me. As someone who isn't dating, most of my opportunities to speak with new people come from work.
I live with 9 people: One is a musician, one is in politics, one works with Greenland tourism, one is a therapist, and so on it goes.
It's been very giving to have so many different approaches around me.
I hope I'll be able to continue it once I get children.
I concur with this view. I did my PhD in an "Oxbridge" college, and one of the best parts of that was being able to spend time out of work with smart people who were not in my own field. They might be historians, economists, chemists, artists, architects, etc, etc. But all accomplished to some extent in their own fields.
This is precisely what I’m finding now in the same situation. My fear is continuing to make new relationships outside the college environment later (and maintaining current circles)
I always have a weird conversation with co-workers when they want happy hours and other events after work. I have to tell them point blank, I’d rather spend time with my kids or wife than them.
I can’t stand events even during the day, though I get it. I’d still rather be with my family or friends outside of work 100% of the time.
That said, I get along with my co-workers and we have great fun on trips and what not. But the goal is still making a living so I can enjoy time with my family.
When my kids are old enough, I also intend them to attend and learn what I do. When I was a kid my parents taught me everything about their work. It was exceedingly valuable. I think a lot of the corporate culture today has really been detrimental to children.
I have a few people that I keep up with outside work, but for me there's a couple of things I've learned the hard way, and one thing that I learned watching my parents' generation learn the hard way.
I'm pushing 50, so my parents are boomers. While they had a much easier ride than their children and grandchildren in many ways, one thing that buggered a lot of them in the 80s was that the idea of long-term employment was brutally ripped away. People who had worked at the same firm for 20 or 30 years were unceremoniously dumped out of work by Chainsaw Al Dunlap inspired gutting of companies; many of those people had their personal relationships revolve around work as well as their professional life, and were kicked in the guts twice by the process, losing their social circle at the same time as the upheval of their financial lives. Being dependent on your employer for your social circle, your income, and your professional development is a terrible thing.
Secondly, personally, if I hang out with people I work with, I have a hard time talking about stuff that's not work. It's not healthy for me, and probably tedious for them (unless they suffer from the same problem). We need to breathe. Rehashing the working day in your evenings and weekends is not a way to decompress. Others may be different, but I am happier if I spend my evening talking about, say, the points in common of Villneuve's Duke Leto and Cornwell's Arthur, rather than which person is being an annoying arsehole.
> Others may be different, but I am happier if I spend my evening talking about, say, the points in common of Villneuve's Duke Leto and Cornwell's Arthur, rather than which person is being an annoying arsehole.
In my experience doing other activities (golfing, 5 a side football, painting miniatures, a book club, whatever) is a great way to avoid that problem.
It was like this for me in the hacker scene. I wanted to learn about security, but I didn't want to be around toxic people all the time. But at work, the people I hang out with outside the office don't talk about tech or work, because we hang out to pursue our other interests: music, climbing, auto racing. I'm probably the only one bringing up work outside of work...
I think of this distinction between "culture affiliations" and "hunting pack" .. some people really do focus on the hunting side, which is hard for people who do not, to understand even when it is right in front of them.. as a culture person, I also did as this poster did, and that only goes so far.. your life changes with the decades
To add to that the average tenure in the industry is what like less than 2 years? Are you expected to renew your entire social circle every year or so? Sounds like miserable existence…
I'm curious how regional that is. Back when I was just doing software 2-3 years seemed normal, now in a more industrial setting it's more like 5-7 years. It's interesting though how it seems to jump from 'normal tenure' to 'lifers' wherever I go, there's always a few who've been around 20+ years.
I think there are many camps as far as making work friends go, and there are weird social circumstances that make making friends through work in english speaking countries a more of a risky thing, which is an indictment of the culture itself.
Imagine if you told a child or college student they shouldn't make friends with their classmates in school, but instead only make friends with activities out of school. We spend a large amount of our lives at work and school, lets make it enjoyable.
The culture of 'you should be miserable at work, because it's WORK' is toxic.
I also think it's ok to make friends outside of work too.
I have no issues with this but I worked from home before the pandemic. Once it's 17:30 or so that's it. Close the computer and go my way. No matter how much stuff needs to be done. Once it's time it can wait till tomorrow.
I get a set schedule from 10am to 5pm. As my desktop is the most comfortable setup, I use it after hours too, but I close all work related software at 5pm. I use Safari as my personal browser and Firefox as my work one (Most of my software are pretty utilitarian as I have a ps4 and an Apple TV for entertainment purposes). The other things is I don't do work outside of my desk.
You only work 7h per day minus lunch break? Sounds sweet. Do you get paid for full time?
I usually work 7am to 4pm but lately we have been ordered to work overtime so currently I am doing 7am to 5pm and a couple of hours extra on Saturdays.
Personal life pretty much consists of taking care of the kids and maintaining the house.
Most companies will throw out their employees at the drop of the hat when they feel like it. Is it really worth giving them that much of your time every day? I don't think so.
If you keep this up for the next 10 years, what will you have to say about yourself and your accomplishments?
I dont see anywhere in my employment contract that says my ass needs to be in a seat for a certain amount of hours per week. I just do my best to meet my employment obligations — especially when working from home I can meet those obligations in less than 40 hours per week. If my employer said I needed to work regular overtime or if they demanded I work a very rigid schedule I would just leave and find a job elsewhere. The tech job market in my city is so hot right now I get solicited by recruiters 3-4 times per week, it just isn’t worth it to spend time in a place which doesn’t treat you well.
I'm a contractor working full time on a project. If something is not done after 7 hours of continuous work, it may as well wait for tomorrow as I will be very tired and less than performant. Also mental health. I've been burned out previously and it was not pleasant. I try to separate work and personal life as much as I can (mostly virtually, as I'm working from home). If I had an office space, I would leave my desktop there.
When I WFH, I still get dressed into "work clothes". When I check out for the day, I'll change into something more comfortable (not that slacks and a collared shirt are particularly uncomfortable). I don't remember to do this every day, but when I do, it really helps me unplug afterwards. No work clothes = no work!
Disclaimer: I happen to work for Google, but speak on my own behalf and not my employer's. I don't have any relevant inside info.
Is it possible that people who are otherwise happier "segment" better as a result? Someone lonely or unhappy might naturally try to get their social needs met via work, for example.
This seems feasible. Or maybe it's not happiness itself but just having other things you value highly enough that you make it a priority to give them uninterrupted time: family, friendships, hobbies, etc.
Perhaps it's a space-filling thing, where if you don't have those things for whose sake you need to set boundaries, including a hard unplug, work creeps into the available space?
Or maybe it's a combo of competency and healthy work environment. You feel comfortable that you can get things done during business hours, and that your employer does not expect anything more, and so you feel good about setting boundaries, and that confidence is correlated with happiness?
The analysis here is very superficial. No evidence is provided that trying to enforce a work-life barrier would make those who don't currently enforce one happier. The drivers of being a segmentor or an integrator could be a combination of personality traits and how demanding a person's manager is, rather than something someone could simply choose to change and expect benefits.
Well I did find some evidence in the linked article, albeit older evidence.
> For example, in 2012 our Dublin office ran a program called “Dublin Goes Dark” in which they asked people to drop off their devices at the front desk before leaving for the night. Googlers said that this site-wide effort resulted in a shared sense of stress relief for many.
THAT sounds plausible. I think there are healthy ways to integrate work and life (if you work at a place that has some worker protections in particular), I think being friends with coworkers is good and helpful for both work and personal life, and I think it's good to daydream productively about work ideas, BUT being able to not feel like you're on-call all the time must be a big advantage in reducing stress levels.
It seems a little facile to argue a person can’t change their approach to work. It’s not like we are creatures of pure instinct, and if your professional knowledge job isn’t a place you consciously operate I don’t know where such a thing would occur.
But isn't the question also "will your team/manager/obligations allow you to change your approach?" Or, if you want to have more integration with your team, how does that work if they live in another country/state, or simply have very different interests?
It'd be nice if they had defined what it means to separate personal and work lives.
Like, don't check email after work hours? Or, don't be personal friends with coworkers? Or don't discuss personal plans during work small talk?
There's a lot of different ways to "separate personal and work lives", and there's a lot of different interpretations between how blurry that line can be before you have a separation or don't have separation.
I believe that "there is a clear boundary between my career and my non-work roles" was literally the prompt text, where folks rated it on a scale from "Strongly Disagree" to "Strongly Agree".
At Google's scale, individuals have different preferences for all of these things. Some people don't want to read email after they leave the office at 5pm. Other people leave at 3pm to pick up kids, but sign back on from 7pm to 11pm to address stuff. Others will work whatever hours M-F but won't respond to emails on the weekend. Someone else works with a team across an ocean, and so they check email Sunday through Thursdays or Tuesday through Saturday. It's not one size fits all; it's about creating a work environment where folks feel comfortable talking about enabling flexibility without creating expectations of being always-on.
The main model I use is strict firewalling: no personal stuff on the work laptop, no work stuff on the personal laptop. No personal stuff during work time, no work stuff during personal time.
I then poke a very well chosen set of holes in the firewall: some coworkers get added on signal on my personal phone. Some personal tasks that are time sensitive happen during work time. ...sometimes pages happen during personal time.
This makes sure that for the most part, stuff stays where it's supposed to be. But when exceptions are made, they're very high leverage.
I have found that for the most part, even if we aren't working for our employer, we are still "working" at building the economy in other ways: working on the house to increase the value of land, brushing up on skills to make us better workers, (sports) gambling, monitoring crypto or other assets. The analogy that comes to mind is that even when we technically aren't at our employer, we are still acting as worker bees for the queen of our hive/economy. I wonder if others have felt similarly.
The meals and sleep parts seem more or less like ways to keep us effective at the aforementioned work.
In my free time I watch sports, some tv shows, read books and play golf. I am spending minimal (if any time) on those things you mentioned above. It seems like a personal choice to spend your free time on things that feel like work.
Friends have to come from somewhere, and "integrators" may just be people who are in the process of making friends while "segmentors" are those who already have a network.
If you are single and just arrived in a new place, you probably won't have a lot of friends, and you will naturally form new friendships in the places you are the most often, and work is an obvious one. Like school is for students. So at least for some time, you will be an "integrator".
The opposite is for people who have been in the place for many years before getting hired, they already have a lot of friends, have a lot to do after work and don't have time to integrate a new group, they will be "segmentors".
Also, especially now, friendships tend to outlast jobs, and therefore, "integrators" can turn into "segmentors" as their group of friends no longer work together.
I just changed jobs and I’m quite a bit more segmenty now. Though I like to think that for me being segmenty isnt about personal distance, but about stopping working (or worrying about work) on time each day.
I like meeting people and making friends, and even if I attain perfect work life balance that social aspect won’t change.
segmentors are significantly happier, maybe because they have opportunity to hang out with non-work friends.
for people who just moved across the country to a brand new city, work is their primary source of socialisation. they hang out with coworkers also because they dont know many other people.
This seeems like a sensible analysis of the 9-to-5 office worker approach to life.
However. I suspect this does not project well on the lives of entrepreneurs and self-directed workers.
For example, I believe if you were to include on this survey non google staffers, like entrepreneur farmers, merchants, mercenaries, i.e. roles of independent, founder devs, and any self-directed entrepreneurs that live their profession 24/7, i suspect you'd find that they are far happier than the rest of the sample set.
There is nothing wrong with overlap of work and play, if work IS play and you enjoy it. The vast majority of entrepreneurs do because as owners they can do their job as they see fit.
Anecdotally, i see this evidenced quite often when i see entrepreneurs retire due to external pressures: once founders give up their raison d'etre, their health decline is fast and dramatic.
I live in a 1-bedroom apartment, and things that have allowed me to segment much more efficiently, is (1) always writing down goals for the next day/week before stopping work, (2) putting my work computer and notes on a shelf out of sight at the end of the day, and (3) making small adjustments to my desk (e.g. rotate it 90 degrees) to make it feel different after work.
This on top of dealing with my personal struggles head-on has overall made me much happier, and I’d say more efficient.
>Google research shows that those who rigidly separate their personal and work lives are significantly happier about their well-being than those who tend to blur the lines between the two.
That's pretty ironic given that Google (and their ilk) have invested so much into making their campus' "sticky." Will this signal a sea change? I'm doubtful...
Odd stance given how much google has historically encouraged the blending of personal and professional lives. Are they reversing this position in earnest or simply desperately trying to get back to the “campus” mode they pioneered?
At least in the NYC startup scene, I’ve noticed a tendency for coworkers to spend a lot of time together outside the office. I used to do it, too. Not just the occasional Thursday evening beer, but every weekend, or even several times a week. They treat it as their main social circle.
I’m a programmer, but coincidentally most of my friends are artists. I enjoy that they’re not particularly invested in what I do, but I still feel appreciated when they sometimes ask about “how the internet works” or “what really is coding anyways?” I can be a “tech guy” but not make it my entire identity.
Overall, I think it’s better that when I’m with friends I get to talk about the other aspects of life, and take a break from being constantly tech-focused. And, of course, get my mind off of work for once!