Marriage is a lie. In America and much of Europe, just under half of marriages end in divorce. Any honest person would answer their vows with not "I do" but "probably". We like the idea of lifelong fidelity, but it simply isn't a practical reality for most people. We need to be honest with ourselves.
We're all smart people here. None of us would be so stupid as to sign a really bad VC agreement because we really liked the VC. Why do so many of us willingly sign bad contracts in our personal life? If someone here was signing an agreement with a startup cofounder that had no stock vesting clause and no provisions to secure IP, we'd be in like a shot to warn them. If someone here announced their engagement, I'm sure we'd all congratulate them. Marriage is objectively a terrible financial deal, particularly for the likes of us, but we ignore how bad a deal it is for purely sentimental reasons.
This is an entirely money-centric view of things. This is like saying going to a movie is a bad deal because you spent $15, 2 hours of time, and ended up with nothing financially useful at the end. Marriages are not usually primarily financial contracts, VC contracts primarily are.
Money is an abstraction, a means to an end, not the end. For many (most?) people, that intended end is a happy, healthy, safe family, which is hard to do without marriage.
Well, that's not really true. Any two people, remember can hold any ceremony they want in front of their friends, call themselves whatever they want, live together, have kids, whatever.
Marriage however is very specifically a contract between two individuals and the State. You get a marriage license and you file the paperwork at City Hall. The State's interest is obvious: it wants new, well-adjusted citizens. So the contract says, we'll give you these privileges (in tax, immigration, etc) and you do your bit. Part of that is, all property becomes the property of the new entity. So yeah, the only difference between "getting married" and doing it yourself is the contract.
Strictly legally speaking, sure, but marriage is much more than a legal contract in reality. The ceremony, living together, commitment etc. is most of the definition of marriage. That activity your describing has been called marriage for thousands of years, with or without legal components, and just because some people are doing it now without making it legally binding doesn't make it something fundamentally different from marriage.
I'm curious if anyone in the anti-marriage camp has children.
I've heard the "marriage is an anachronism" argument for many years, exclusively from childless couples.
If that's true - and it may be just due to small sample size of my personal experience - then it implies confirmation bias on both sides of the debate.
Is anyone here in a committed, non-married relationship with kids?
I'm not-- I'm happily married with four kids-- but here in Norway, committed, non-married relationships with kids are extremely common. In fact, a majority of children in Norway are born outside of wedlock (a fact that nobody views as a problem.)
Also worth noting is that co-habiting partners have almost all of the same rights as married partners, so legally, there's not much difference if one marries or not.
I criticize the institution of marriage even though I'm happily married and we're expecting a child. I would still want to have a monogamous, long term relationship with my wife, only every time I think about the institution (and the Mike Huckabees, Pat Robertsons and Barack Obamas of the world claiming that marriage is between a man and a woman) I get an icky feeling like I'm a member of a racist country club or that I inherited a Nazi fortune.
The bond between two people is only as valid/strong/durable as the commitment. There is no reason to preserve a tradition that has been co-opted by social conservatives and now symbolizes bigotry more than it serves a practical purpose.
Furthermore, all the social meddling (tax rates, special privileges) makes me feel like a pawn.
Maybe we are not all smart people - can you please explain why marriage is "a lie"? Do you mean some marriages or "marriage" itself?
I don't consider my marriage "a lie" or "a bad contract", and certainly not a "financial deal". I'm not sure why you do, or why you believe I am being dishonest, or that I was dishonest when I made my vows.
If you seriously think that people should say "probably" to a "bad contract" then I wonder what you think your signature is worth on other contracts.
I do understand that human integrity is variable, and values vary. I don't wish to impose mine on you.
Saying "probably" is a way of avoiding dishonestly over-representing his confidence in the marriage lasting. Obviously you're offended, but don't let that be an excuse to let your reasoning slip.
OP: "Any honest person would answer their vows with not "I do" but "probably".
I answered mine with "I do". Does that make me a dishonest person? Did you read my vows?
Are mortgages also a lie? Should everyone have signed "probably" in case they ended up in jingle-mail territory? Are then then dishonest people? I think not. Perhaps my honesty bar is set too low, but, again, I think not.
Saying that a commitment question (Yes/no, In/out, etc) should be answered with "probably" is a little strange, and a little naive, I think.
Statistically, 4 in 10 people who say "I do" will be proved wrong eventually, but nobody ever considers for a minute that it will be them. Everyone thinks that they are special, that they will beat the odds, that the rules of probability do not apply to them.
If 40% of mortgages ended in default, it would be a national emergency, but for some reason we accept that close to half of marriages end in divorce. The vows of marriage clearly fail to reflect how people actually decide to live their lives. In that sense, marriage is an outmoded institution, one I feel is in urgent need of revision.
We have to accept as a society that while the majority of us say we want to pair for life, a very large proportion of us actually do not want that. The cultural fallout of these dashed hopes and broken promises is truly toxic. We are collectively living in denial. We are telling children that mummy and daddy will be together forever, in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. We need to be more honest and rational, to ourselves and to others.
Fifty years ago, divorce was rare. A hundred years ago, it was unheard of. At some point in the near future, divorce will be the most likely end of a marriage. The costs to society are clearly enormous and we urgently need to revise the legal nature of marriage to better reflect the practical reality. I do not oppose marriage; I oppose an outmoded version of marriage that enshrines self-deception and the deception of others into law.
Our cultural and legal concept of marriage is very specific and is in no way definitive. In many parts of the Islamic world, marriage can legally be of a fixed length, with exit terms prearranged. This to me seems far more rational, in preserving the true purpose of marriage (the protection of patrilineage) while allowing for more long-term flexibility and reducing the costs of divorce to near-zero.
> Statistically, 4 in 10 people who say "I do" will be proved wrong eventually
Being proven wrong does not make you a liar, nor dishonest.
A commitment question is not a probability question, it asks whether you are in or out. Is it more honest to answer "probably" when asked whether you want another card when drawing 14 at blackjack? Are you dishonest if it turns out you made a mistake?
> the majority of us say we want to pair for life, a very large proportion of us actually do not want that.
So...the one group should force their viewpoint on the other?
> We need to be more honest and rational, to ourselves and to others.
I think I am being completely honest and rational. I don't tell my kids mummy and daddy will be together for ever, I tell them what the plan is.
> The costs to society are clearly enormous
Do you mean social costs or financial costs? How are the costs reduced if there is no marriage (except for in litigious societies, and if you removed marriage in them then lawsuits would simply shift to the next level)?
> Our cultural and legal concept of marriage is very specific
Yours or mine? You state that "marriage is a lie". I think it is not for everyone, but some people like it.
In my country, the costs of divorce are near-zero. Maybe it is expensive in some countries. Why then is that a problem with marriage, and not with that countries legal and social system?
Why is marriage "a lie"? Why is it dishonest to say "I do"?
Edit: Note that I think you are very likely right about marriage needing reform in the way that it fits into some modern societies. However, the terms you use to describe many people's happy lifestyles, people who may well think about things just as much as you, are somewhat inflammatory.
My marriage is one of the best things in my life, and having it described as a lie and myself described as dishonest is offensive, I guess.
Society has changed a lot, but maybe marriage is not the thing that needs changing to fix the problems you see.
Amen. An entertaining polemic that discusses some of these issues is "Against Love" by Laura Kipnis.
It seems to me that conservatives - if they really do stand for "small government" - would oppose the concept of legalized marriages, in which we are all expected to submit our personal relationship for approval by the government. If that's not intrusive state power, what is? Yet even the most diehard libertarians rarely question the validity of state-sanctioned marriage.
On the contrary, it's almost exclusively die hard libertarians criticizing state sanctioned marriage.
The main reason more libertarians (as opposed to good/small govt conservatives) don't criticize state sanctioned marriage is that most are unaware of how large the subsidies to married couples actually are. Many people think marriage is nothing more than a standardized contract between two people.
We're all smart people here. None of us would be so stupid as to sign a really bad VC agreement because we really liked the VC. Why do so many of us willingly sign bad contracts in our personal life? If someone here was signing an agreement with a startup cofounder that had no stock vesting clause and no provisions to secure IP, we'd be in like a shot to warn them. If someone here announced their engagement, I'm sure we'd all congratulate them. Marriage is objectively a terrible financial deal, particularly for the likes of us, but we ignore how bad a deal it is for purely sentimental reasons.