> If you lose the ability to be a normal person whenever

That depends on what "normal" is, and I don't think you or I get to define it.

I mostly hang out in mixed-gender groups, but I absolutely have seen the difference in vibe others in this thread have noted, when I'm hanging out with a group of just other men. Especially when compared to a mixed group that has both single men and single women.

> men are putting these strange rules and requirements on their own selves

I wouldn't call it a "rule" so much as a "phenomenon". It just seems to kinda happen. Not always, and not in every mixed-gender group, but it does happen. I don't think anyone is making up or following any kind of "rules", and I can't control group dynamics or behavior on my own.

> I don't think that's a society issue. I think that's a you issue.

I think this discussion would be more productive without thinly-veiled ad hominem attacks.

> Like I'm being a bit of a contrarian dick

This is the only thing you've said that I agree with

> If you lose the ability to be a normal person

What is normal for a group of men is different than what is normal for the same group of men when a woman is present

It's not rocket science here.

The person you're replying to seems to have constructed this elaborate scenario in their head where they're "one of the good ones" and is somewhere between unwilling and incapable of imagining men wanting to spend time with just other men some of the time. Apparently someone wanting this must be lonely, incapable of socializing with women, and offensive to others as a default.

This says a lot about that person, that they can't imagine men socializing any other way. I think they're making excuses for their own bad behavior.

Why?

And why gender, but not race?

Why would race matter in this context? This is clearly about socio-sexual dynamics. Genders are the key differentiator.

Why aren't there also socio-racial dynamics?

I don't think race matters but clearly culture does. Ukranian or Somali spaces would not be what they are if just anyone could go. Even having to speak English or explain things to outsiders changes the dynamics entirely.

Yes, what is this vibe change? So far I'm picking up:

* Single men don't feel compelled to be horndogs and show off and compete.

* Married men are tired of always doing everything with their wives.

* Possible gay interest?

* Something about model trains, apparently women ruin model trains?

Men in men-only spaces can be honest and open about their experiences with women, which includes being critical of women, without being shamed for it.

This is impossible in spaces where women are also present.

I guess that's true. Seems like loneliness is increased by people's habits of seeking sex, and seeking to talk about sex, and their expectations that others will do that.

Homies that want to smash change to chad mode and suddenly don't want to talk that gay homie shit around the girls. You'd be threatening each other with sloppy toppy, a girl will join and 1-2 guys will instantly turn into businessmen to impress her.

No. It’s a human issue. Some women with a female version of the you problem make the male you problem worse. Why some places can’t be man-free or woman-free to get biology and game theory out of the way?

This.

Nobody said anything like this. I love hanging out in mixed groups.

However, and this may shock you, I also love hanging out in non mixed groups. And they are not the same.

Actually OP started this thread as a description of a solution to the male loneliness problem.

„Just don’t comply with social expectations“ is an advice that is often given but seldomly followed.

You're completely missing the point.

A mixed group works different socially than a male only group.

That's not because the men are socially incompetent. It's because it's a fundamentally different social situation. Even when everyone is an elite socializer.

I'm afraid you may be the one who needs to learn more about socializing.