My issue is the assumption, amongst many of those with kids, that everything should be optimised for people with kids, and anything that isn't is wrong. Because why would you want to optimise anything for other conditions in some cases?

>Why not show the same courtesy?

There is courtesy, and there is being expected to accept suboptimal things for myself so that everything can be optimal for other peoples' choices.

--------

[1] except perhaps the particularly uncontrolled ones, and I acknowledge that is sometimes unavoidable

How exactly is everything optimised with families in mind? Ask any parent and I'm sure they will tell you how unoptimised their life is.

Why does a single person with their own expendable income worry so much about being catered for specifically? Your only responsibility is to yourself. Do you look around and bemoan family specific services? It's such an odd thing to care about unless you had a grudge.

Kids aren't a 'lifestyle choice' like deciding to travel. Do I need to go into the reasons why kids are important or who will be paying to keep you alive when your older?

In your response, yes. Either that or you are significantly misreading my posts.

> How exactly is everything optimised with families in mind?

It isn't. I didn't say that at all. Some things are, possibly not enough, but many parents think everything should be and everything that isn't implies some deliberate slight.

> Ask any parent and I'm sure they will tell you how unoptimised their life is.

Ah, the old “you are not a parent, you don't know how hard it is”. I know many parents, and even without that personal context the issues with parenthood are well documented throughout our culture. If anyone is ignorant of reality here it is parents who are surprised to find it isn't easy…¹

> Why does a single person with their own expendable income worry so much about being catered for specifically?

I don't, and that isn't what I said.

> Your only responsibility is to yourself.

Incorrect. I have parents, other family, friends, pets, my work (though that could be filed under responsibility to myself I suppose - I'm not a public servant by any description), other organisations (both commercial and charitable) that I interact with, certain responsibilities we all have to society in general, etc.

> Do you look around and bemoan family specific services?

I very much do not, I don't even bemoan funding them, and I explicitly said as much (to quote: “I don't begrudge my taxes going into education and relevant parts of the NHS…”). Try reading what you reply to before replying to it!

> It's such an odd thing to care about unless you had a grudge.

Not a grudge as such. Just an irritation that if I'm sometimes seen as selfish if I appreciate something that is optimised for my lifestyle. I've been called selfish for just not wanting to have kids.

> Kids aren't a 'lifestyle choice'

They very much are. It is a choice that affects your lifestyle in a great many ways whichever side you choose (or, in some cases, have chosen for you).

> Do I need to go into the reasons why kids are important

No need, I've been told these things, despite already knowing them, many many many times already!

> who will be paying to keep you alive when your older?

That is a complicated discussion that I really don't have time for ATM, but further to “why kids are important” I am well aware of the problems an average ageing population can cause.

--------

[1] Obviously excluding those whose kids have specific issues, be they physical, mental, or both. Those matters are not predictable unlike the general challenges almost all parents face.

However, you find it irritating when people call you selfish when things are catered for you.

Who are these people calling you selfish by the way? Who has said your selfish for not having kids for example.

This frustration with parents seem to come from a sense of guilt? Not that I agree you should feel that way. But all this talk of feeling selfish and being called selfish. I have never felt that way about any friends or family I know without kids. Never even crossed my mind.

If you're truly happy with your lifestyle choice, these things shouldn't bother you at all.

You are twisting my words again. I'm strongly suspecting this is deliberate, to make my position sound more hard-line, rather than a misunderstanding on your part. I said many, which is far from most, and to those with kids not to their specific family¹.

> This irritates you.

Not directly. If you pay attention to the start of this thread² you'll see that the source of irritation was the implied “you aren't a parent so you don't understand”. Here it was said lightly, but often there is more than a hint of suggesting that those without kids, particularly those who very much don't want them, are somehow both inferior in terms of knowledge, intellect, morality, or some mix of the three.

> Who are these people calling you selfish by the way?

Currently, directly to me? No one. I've successfully convinced the world around me that my line ending here is not a bad thing!

Though it was explicitly stated in my direction in my younger years when talking about future life plans. Who was saying it? Quite a mix of people, though there was certainly a bias towards those to whom religion was an important part of how they gauge the actions/intent of others. In some cases I think people take my explicitly not wanting that way of life is me saying that the other choice is generally wrong and that they, by inference, are wrong³, which is not the case. My original home town has a prevalence of certain opinions about the world, and there was from some people a suggestion that other cultures having more children than was a concern so breeding is some sort of duty, but that is part of a different kettle of mouldy fish.

As an example more outside of myself: I have a couple of friends who would like to have themselves rendered incapable without the hassle of pills and other treatments which, for them and quite a few others, can have significant side effects, but that isn't something they are allowed to choose in this country even at their own expense. The word selfish has definitely been levelled at them (also “misguided” and similar, along with “you'll change your mind and regret it” as if they are a 14-year-old wanting a face tattoo not a 30-something trying to make their life less problemful for a week each month).

> This frustration with parents…

Again, your wording seems to be trying to frame me as saying things that I am not, here that all parents have unreasonable expectations. That is rather disingenuous of you.

> seem to come from a sense of guilt?

Nope. I don't see what I would feel guilty about here.

> If you're truly happy with your lifestyle choice, these things shouldn't bother you at all.

I am, but I have to admit to not being high-minded enough not to be bothered by the implied inferiority (“you aren't a parent, you wouldn't understand”, etc.) or that everything should cater for the other choice.

Also, I am not the only one who matters here. That the pressure to conform to traditional family models exists, means that some end up in a place that they really wouldn't have chosen for themselves and that they are not happy about.

----

[1] The latter would imply I think that their view point is from an entirely self-centred perspective

[2] Assuming you are not an LLM with a limited context window so don't have access to that!

[3] This certainly applies to a couple of people who have since popped out enough, or been the cause of others having them, to make up for my lack of desire to have any. How much it applies more generally is less provable.