Realistically speaking it correlates extremely well with self control. Not perfect and I'm not talking about a few extra pounds. But morbid obesity? Yeah pretty much always ..
I don't know that that's true. For subset of people, this correlation may be true. To be extremely anecdotal though, I have never had trouble maintaining my weight even though I don't exercise, have a mostly sedentary lifestyle, and don't pay attention to my diet. I just got lucky in that I feel hungry more rarely than others. I think it would be absurd to say this is a reflection of my self control, and I am sure there are others that this applies to too.
This. 100%. I was blessed with good genes from my parents. It is so easy for me to maintain a reasonable weight. (Same for them.) Until very recently, I hardly did any exercise for more than 15 years, except the occasional weekend hike (nothing too crazy). Yes, there is some degree of self-control around eating, but lucky people with good genes love to wag their finger as people who struggle to maintain their weight. Whenever diet/weight issues come up on HN, there are always some very interesting posts by people with food control issues. They know their brain is broken (too hungry too frequently, etc.), but they cannot do very much about it. I'm happy to see that millions of people are finally able to lose weight and keep it off using GLP-1 drugs.
Being skinny does not, but being morbidly obese absolutely is a strong correlation to the point of it being a rounding error. Medical conditions that cause it are extremely rare.
For better or worse, as a formerly morbidly obese person I can say society doesn’t really care why - they absolutely take you less seriously overall regardless of the underlying reasons.
I would suggest that you're overstating the certainty of your view. At least in how it relates to rekenaut's point.
Purely focussing on people who are fat because they eat too much (which includes myself, albeit also now formerly morbidly obese thanks to Mounjaro):
(1) The studies find a statistically strong correlation, but that doesn't mean everyone who is morbidly obese has poor self control. The raw data still tends to show a big overlap of obese people with good self control and thin people with poor self control - so it's not reasonable to say anyone in that group is just a rounding error.
(2) The way that food self-control is usually measured is, for example, delayed gratification testing with food. It's not surprising that an obese person will do worse at this, but it doesn't necessarily mean the issue is self-control. It could be that their experience of hunger is stronger than the person who is able to exercise more restraint, so even if they're exercising the same level of self-restraint, they're going to give in sooner. It'd be like saying someone who can hold a plank for longer has more determination. There's a bit of that obviously, but then there's also (much more importantly) how fit and muscular you are.
(3) Self-control itself can be, and often is, a medical issue. Obviously there's ADHD/Autism/depression/thyroid issues/so on. which affect your mind in the general sense, but many common drugs including antidepressants, antipsychotics, antihistamines, etc. are also well known for causing obesity. Science still doesn't know why, exactly, they cause weight gain, other than it's through increased caloric intake - but not clear what drives it.
(4) This one is more speculative, but when I started taking Mounjaro, my general self-control increased. This is quite a common reported side effect. There's no evidence (yet?) that it directly affects your brain in any way that would affect self-control, but nevertheless it seems to for many. Separately, we know that being hungry seems to reduce your general self-control. It doesn't seem like a huge leap of logic to think that maybe the reason Mounjaro is having such powerful psychological effects on people is actually because being hungry is quite a powerful general non-specific motivator -- in which case, the studies testing calorie consumption against general measures of self-control might be producing a correct result but have the cause and effect the wrong way round.
Cards on the table, I'd say the proximal cause for why I'm fat is because I am less to resist food than the average person. However, my general self-control seems to be pretty much fine, and I only got fat after I started taking antidepressants for anxiety. Impulsive would be one of the last words anyone would use to describe me - it's just isolated to food as far as I can tell. Prior to Mounjaro, I was just thinking about eating pretty much all the time. While I'm eating, I'd be thinking about what I'm going to eat next. I was never NOT hungry.
> when I started taking Mounjaro, my general self-control increased. This is quite a common reported side effect.
Wow, this is fascinating. I write that without sarcasm; I really mean it. I put this in the same (unproven) category as when middle-aged men start to do weight lifting (nothing too crazy), it "magically" cures many mental health issues, such as anxiety and depression. (The number of anecdotes I have heard with this pattern boggles my mind.)
Do you think part of your improved self-control is just feeling better about yourself? Allow me to extrapolate a bit here: If you are depressed, it is "easy" to throw away self-control and eat, eat, eat. Might the reverse also be true? If you are less depressed, it is easier to harness your self-control and eat less? It seems very plausible to me, but nearly impossible to prove the mechanism, except to observe it with a careful study.
Further, I am curious to hear more about the positive effects on your life after your self-control increased. Example: Are you doing better in relationships, or better at work... or the sun shines brighter in your life now... or what? These kinds of HN posts with high quality, first hand anecdata are some of my favourites.
I am not the commenter above. However, depression and lack of discipline/self-control form a negative feedback loop. Lack of discipline causes you to be depressed, which causes you to have less discipline. A lot of practices that seemed 'strict' to us that cultures would practice in the past are socially evolved ways to re-instill discipline via social shame. For example, the fasting days in the liturgical calendar. While you may have become undisciplined personally, when there's a fasting day that comes around every week, or an especially important one that comes by every year, you might decide to make a change.
For me personally, as a Catholic, I was able to kick my bad dietary habits during Lent. I wouldn't have been able to do it otherwise. The social pressure of having to abide by my rules helped me very much, and this was possible because my parents were 'strict' about Lent with us.
Ignoring the spiritual aspect completely, I think these practices are insanely useful which is why every culture has them. But we've thrown them out the window for some reason.
Very late reply, but as someone who lost a lot of weight on Mounjaro and has so far (2 years after the fact or so) kept it off via lifestyle changes this is how I see it as well.
When you are constantly trying something and failing at it, you get into negative feedback loops. At least I do. Why even try? Then you get into depressive behavior and other such toxic lifestyle issues that effect far more than your physical health and appearance.
Tirzepatide was simply a tool that let me engage in self control and better behavior towards food while I learned what will and will not work for me long term. Call it a crutch, cheating, whatever - I don't care. All those are absolutely true in some sense. It gave me space to dial in consistency and habits when it came to eating and exercise.
After not stepping foot in a gym my entire life I now make zero excuses and show up 3 days a week rain, shine, depression, anxiety, lack of time time, whatever. Zero excuses. Same goes for eating and diet. I know where my weaknesses lie now, and simply don't put myself in a position to fail very often.
This in turn let me realize (well, remember!) that yeah, I can accomplish incredibly hard things if I put my mind to it. I knew this logically as I'm an extremely accomplished person (in my own mind at least!) - but now it's felt at a more emotional and subjective level. I used this feedback loop and am applying it to other areas of my life. It's all about consistency and good habits for me.
There isn't any rocket science or magic behind it. It's just a positive feedback loop replacing a negative one, and that pushing outwards to other areas of my life. It's still incredibly hard work, same with losing weight was even with the chemical help.
It's also why upthread I said that morbid obesity is a strong correlation to lack of self control. There are many reasons for not having self control, and I honestly think humans really don't have it in the sense most like to think about it. I don't see it as a moral issue as most do, so I can offend folks by saying so without meaning it that way. It's just habits and consistency and putting yourself in the right environment. Very difficult to do when surrounded by the negative forces modern society tosses you in by default, and it's zero surprise to me or indication of a moral failing when so many simply go with the default option. I sure did! It's also very easy to focus on one area of your life at the exclusion of the rest - starting and running a successful company gives you a million excuses to not worry about your health or weight, but it's still toxic to you in the end regardless of other successes in life.
This is a great reply. Thank you to share your first hand account.
> Tirzepatide was simply a tool that let me engage in self control and better behavior towards food while I learned what will and will not work for me long term.
For others, I needed to Google "Tirzepatide". The trade name is Mounjaro (or Zepbound).
> Call it a crutch, cheating, whatever - I don't care.
No need for that. You have my full support. Whatever works for you is good.
Why would it correlate with self-control? It seems much more likely to correlate with interests and food preferences. My old college roommate just loved vegetables and complained how he couldn't gain weight, so would take weight gainer powder. I suggested eating hamburgers and pizza, and he said that he couldn't stand the taste. His lack of weight had little to do with self-control.
And given how much weight can be impacted by relatively small changes in diet over a long period of time, makes me think that self-control likely plays little role. The fact that I love basketball and not video games doesn't give me more self-control. It just means I enjoy doing something that burns a lot of calories.
Something I've noticed with "naturally skinny" people: They simply don't have the appetite of the obese. They don't need to self-regulate their eating, as they just don't have the desire to eat. Their sense of hunger is properly calibrated. If they eat a large lunch, they won't even be hungry at dinner time and might just have a snack if they eat at all.
As an obese over-eater, I'm insanely jealous. I'm almost constantly hungry. For me to lose weight, I have to ignore the literal pain in my stomach and the strong biological urge to eat. I literally just finished my lunch 45 minutes ago which consisted of a roast beef sandwich (with like 8 oz of roast beef) and some chips. About 800 calories. I'm still hungry.
I'm not dehydrated and confusing thirst with hunger. My urine is almost completely clear.
> I suggested eating hamburgers and pizza, and he said that he couldn't stand the taste. His lack of weight had little to do with self-control.
Absolutely wild. Maybe that's the next level of human evolution: To have a brain that understands that food will always be readily available in modern civilization and so finding high-calorie foods delicious and providing a dopamine hit for consuming them isn't necessary.
People assume that hunger is the same for everyone, and that can be used to simply rank the level of willpower people are exerting against the drive. But it's not. Some people have different appetites which leave them skinny or permanently hungry. Some people can and do eat a lot more than others for less weight gain.
This is why the drugs are so effective: they're appetite suppressants.
Have you tried replacing by volume? E.g. fill your stomach with a large salad (which can include some meat if necessary). And if you get hungry in 45 minutes, just eat more salad? You may also find that cutting out carby/starchy food will make you less hungry (once you get past the initial withdrawal symptoms), as long as you keep your stomach "satiated by volume" with low calorie/high nutrient food.
Another trick is to try splitting that sandwich in two and eating the second half after 45 minutes (when you get hungry again).
100% this. I had a handful of tortilla chips last night and today I had hunger cravings despite not doing any activity. Once you realize the link, it's hard to ignore the obvious.
Hunger signals can be very confusing. Is it an actual hunger signal or is it a craving for another hit of dopamine? As a formerly morbidly obese person, who through deliberate fasting has tried hard to understand what actual hunger feels like, I have to admit I still don't trust my own instincts in that regard.
Sometimes what I fear the most isn't hunger, but the let-down that comes with not being fully satisfied.
As a formerly obese person, I'd say it's both for me.
Prior to taking Mounjaro, I was pretty much constantly hungry when it was objectively incorrect to be - for example I had just eaten literally 30 mins prior. This was usually accompanied with stomach rumbling and the weird hungry rain stick noise in the back of the neck (I don't know what causes this but it's not uncommon), so I'm pretty sure it was "real" hunger.
Since taking Mounjaro, it's much easier now to distinguish between really being hungry, and being, I guess, psychologically hungry. Sometimes, now, if I've had a hard day or am in a poor mood, I want to eat chocolate just to make me feel better. That's something I didn't really notice before, maybe because it was always masked/coincident with physiological hunger? Perhaps the psychological side drove me to eat more or less healthily for pleasure, but I was still actually hungry in the first place.
Agreed that you can feel the difference. Prior to the meds I would feel hungry, but after I wouldn't feel hungry anymore but bored. I'd have the instinct to eat, but I would think "Eh I don't want food, I'm not hungry" but I would still feel the urge to do something.
So, as someone with DIRECT experience in this (from a family of morbidly obese people and on that route myself at one point), it's still completely self control. I totally understand what you mean by being able to consume anything and constantly hungry. This is a learned behavior; I'm sorry you learned it. I notice it with my children. My parents will want them to eat and they'll not want to. I just toss the food. My parents would force it on them were it not for my intervention.
The food must be tossed though because we have too much food in 2025, not too little. As i've explained to my parents and aunts and brother... if you consume the food you've not saved money by fully extracting the food's value. The food's value to your body is in a curve. Once you pass the nadir, the food becomes toxic. Thus, you are paying to kill yourself.
Anyway, yes, absolutely for someone with this learned behavior, it takes A LOT of work to unlearn it. It's taken me years and sometimes I still get the same hunger, but it dies down. You must understand that this ability to be hungry all the time is completely learned though. After several months of intermittent fasting very strictly, this finally went away. You must understand that you will feel incredibly free when one day you see something that tastes good, that you know tastes good, and don't feel the need to consume it.
Because of my DIRECT experience, I encourage others to pursue this path and do not give up. So while I understand completely where you are coming from, I also understand your friend's disgust over the pizza and hamburgers. This is the normal response to food, especially the highly greasy / sugary stuff like most modern food. The first time I had ice cream after a long no-carb diet, I could barely stomach it. Again, this is normal but no one told me that growing up; in fact, the opposite was encouraged.
> Absolutely wild. Maybe that's the next level of human evolution:
No it really just means you prioritize other things than filling your stomach.
One thing no one ever told me is that ... you don't have to eat. Indeed, on days where I do very little I barely eat anything. Again, that's NORMAL. It doesn't sound normal to many people because we were raised wrong. On days I do a lot of exercise or house work or physical labor (i have a desk job), then I eat more. That's normal. The eating three meals a day whether you need it or not is not normal at all.
Because appetite suppressants remove the 'self' from the equation. They literally make it so the 'self' (whatever that is) is not in control. But that being said, if you take an appetite suppressant of your own accord (rather than doctor's orders), then you are fine. That's meta-self-control. For example, I know I am uncontrollable around chips. So... I stopped buying them and literally leave the room once I've had just a few. I cannot be around them. I know that and control myself.
A lot of the regain of weight after a diet is due to people starting diets due to doctor's orders and perceiving it as an intervention rather than as a 'rebirth' in a sense. I know there's a meme about vegans, but I don't blame them honestly. If you've ever been food addicted, finally getting it in control feels like a pseudo-religious experience.
> It just means I enjoy doing something that burns a lot of calories.
This says something about your personality. I tend to like active people for example. I find it hard to sit still. If you liked sitting and doing anything we would not be able to be friends.
This idea that your physical activity and physicality have zip-all to do with personality (i.e., the brain-in-vat model which is so common amongst the tech crowd) is the root cause of all this equivocating
