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In the Budapest Memorandum USA promised not to attack Ukraine if it gives back Russian nukes to Russia. They kept the promise.

In the same memorandum Russia promised the same thing. They broke the promise. Repeatedly.

Nonetheless, I agree that more countries should develop their own nukes. Especially the ones like Poland, Baltics and Nordics. Not because it's a good thing to do, but because the world is what it is.




The memorandum also said they would provide assistance, they are not keeping that promise.


The Budapest Memorandum basically only required the USA to bring any violations to the UN Security Council, which we did in 2022. I think we have a moral obligation to continue providing military aid and diplomatic assistance but there is no legal obligation to do anything more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum


That's right. And let's not forget that Europe and USA have been helping directly for a few years now anyway.

It's really disappointing how much misinformation gets reiterated on the Internet with regards to this memorandum, given how short the document is and how easy it is to verify its contents oneself.

PS. NATO's Article 5 is also worth a read. It does not guarantee what is commonly claimed.


Let's not go there.

In the history of the Alliance there is only a single country that invoked article 5, and it was the US with 9/11 that lead to the United Kingdom, Canada, Germany, Australia, Italy, New Zealand to send resources and troops to help with Afghanistan.

And managed to get people involved in Iraq namely United Kingdom, Australia, Poland.

And this situation was way worse and way less called for than the Ukrainians defending themselves...

EDIT/NB: I listed just the major contributors, some other countries participated in different ways and at different levels, but still this is important to mention here...


> Let's not go there.

I genuinely don't know where's "there".

It is a fact, that NATO Article 5 doesn't guarantee anything regardless of other countries' response to USA triggering it, just as it is a fact, that the Budapest Memorandum was mischaracterized in this thread and that both the Europe and USA did help Ukraine. Should we not go where the facts are?

If you're about that the USA should continue helping Ukraine, then I did not question this point of view at all. Pointing out factual errors is not equal to taking a stance.


The implication that I read from what your wrote suggested that the US could offer "assistance" or sit it out, which is not an acceptable stance to hold, by history and the assistance that was provided in need.

Friendship among nations sometimes involves transactions that transcend the pure material considerations, and this shift in alignment is not desirable by anyone.

That's what I meant by "let's not go there".

But I see that basically we are in agreement and I also agree that article 5 interpretation could be dicey.


There was a lot more nations in Afghanistan than those listed, including many non Article 5.

When the US requested assistance, Europe provided.


Yes, it was a non exhaustive list and I should have mentioned it...


relevant, Ukraine also joined the "Coalition of the Willing," a U.S.-led multinational force in Iraq


Thank you for that addendum which, indeed, is critically relevant to the current situation.


I've searched the text of the Memorandum[0] for that promise and couldn't find it there. Can you help?

[0] https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/P...


Point 4

> ... seek immediate UN Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine ... if they should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used

This seems like the passage which would cover it. The UN is able to authorize use of force by member states against the aggressor. Though it looks like it hasn't done that - probably because of Russia's permanent position on the UN Security Council which would veto any such measures.


Action was sought, as required.

Russia vetoed it, as expectged.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/09/1129102


I've read that point, and in my view it contains an obligation to call for a UN Security Council meeting and to seek a certain action by it.

The GP said:

>> The memorandum also said they would provide assistance

The memorandum does not contain an obligation to "provide assistance". "Providing assistance" and "seeking UNSC action" are very different things.

>> they are not keeping that promise.

They are not keeping promise to "provide assistance" because they have never made that promise.




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