Great project but I truly believe that these single screen window managers are going to be a thing of the past if Scrollable WMs manage to find some more marketting.
Niri[1] and PaperWM[2] for example, these Scrolling WMs provide a way to tile your apps in a way that feels natural. It's like having multiple monitors without having multiple monitors.
When I first used PaperWM on Gnome, I just couldn't think of a reason why somebody would even use their computer the normal way when these exist.
The point behind tiling WMs and why a lot of people use lightweight IDEs (meaning multi-window IDEs) is that the idea of virtual desktops is used as a state management and state chronic restoration tool.
A lot of i3/sway users I've seen (including me) are using virtual desktops to not forget what they were working on before the current task. Each dependency that created a sub task in their workflow is represented by a "new layer set of windows". If they have multiple monitors, each monitor has a dedicated place for tools. E.g. the browser window for research, the debugging output, the app window they're working on etc.
Why I think scrolling WMs don't integrate nicely with this is because they lose the state of the historic placement of windows, which is kinda bad for this kind of workflow. But it might be just my bubble of devs that I interacted with.
Would be nice to hear how you were using tiling WMs before that? Was your workflow similar at all to what I described?
When I'm already on a laptop with a small screen, tiling only makes each app fight for screen estate. With Scrolling WMs, it's not an issue because it's just like switching to the second monitor by moving your mouse over to the other app. Now imagine instead of 2 monitors side-by-side, you could have infinite monitors. Not just side-by-side, what about stacked? Scrolling WMs come with vertical workspaces too!
You can still use a Scrolling WM to tile everything the way you would on a Tiling WM and that is where it shines. It's a fantastic solution to the screen estate problem, which tiling managers struggle with.
You're right that they are a bit different but I personally don't see the need for tiling when Scrolling WMs provide the same functionality (vertical and horizontal tiling + workspaces) as well :D
Precisely this. It feels like scrolling WMs and tiling WMs are entirely different paradigms. I see no way to transfer my workflow with tiling to a scrolling WM.
You can also use workspaces with a scrolling layout, you keep the advantages of both, and you don't need to keep on resizing/moving windows because they are too small.
When I moved to Hyprland after having tried almost every DE and tiling WM, I had to write my own layout plugin (hyprscroller) because of how much I missed PaperWM.
If you moved from classic DEs with floating windows and lots of mouse to a tiling WM, scrolling adds another advantage. You can even ignore it and use it as a classic tiling WM, but you also have all the advantages of scrolling once you find a use for them.
Yes, they are fundamentally different in a way (although you could still keep the same layouts with Scrolling WMs). Scrolling WMs are a lot more useful for laptops, where the screen area is limited. It replaces the need for multi-monitors for me and that's quite revolutionary.
Multiple workspaces satisfy this need for me a lot better. In fact, I'm pretty sure that they were invented with the idea of "having multiple monitors without having multiple monitors". A key detail is that I can organise windows on-screen however I want with ease, while also having windows on another workspace organised with a completely different layout. And I usually have 10 workspaces available.
Scrolling WMs are too "linear", so jumping to arbitrary locations becomes harder. E.g.: I can jump from workspace 1 to workspace 7 in O(1), but on a scrolling WM there's no equivalent action to jump right such a large, arbitrary distance.
Mind you, scrolling WMs still sound nice. If you don't _want_ multiple workspaces (or maybe just one or two), they'll likely work out better. They sound like a superb solution for a living room display or touch-only devices. In fact, I'm looking forward to experimenting with niri on my mobile phone.
I hear you but I feel that there's more to it than that. Workspaces while useful, are still more of a closed-door where once you've switched to a workspace, the other ones just disappear as if they don't exist.
Scrolling fixes that problem because I can quickly use my touchpad to scroll through multiple windows, that can be set to 70% of the total width. This means I can actually see what the other apps are doing in realtime. This is different because scrolling WMs 'make you feel' like you're using multiple monitors, since switching to the other windows is very similar.
Scrolling WMs still have workspaces though, so that's not going anywhere but it's one of those 'see it to believe it' things. Scrolling WMs really changed my perspective.
I used almost every DE and tiling window manager before I arrived to PaperWM, and when I moved to Hyprland because of its simplicity and the control it gave me, I had to write a scrolling layout because of how much I missed PaperWM.
- Having a scrolling layout doesn't prevent you from using workspaces, you have both. I use workspaces, some of which are scrolling with rows and columns depending on the task associated to them.
- Jumping to arbitrary locations also takes just one keystroke (and no mouse). For example, hyprscroller supports marks. Set a mark to a window, and you can jump (and get immediate focus) to that window with a key combination. You can move to your editor, e-mail program etc, with one key press, even if they are in different workspaces and not seen on the screen (kind of like in vim)
- You don't need to browse through stacks of hidden windows, they can all be at their preferred size and "seen" at the same time. Once you accept the paradigm, it is very fast, and there is support for overview modes where you can see all your windows scaled to fit the monitor.
- You can automatically resize a set of windows to fit your monitor with a key stroke, allowing you to have all your currently needed windows (editor, docs, browser) visible at the same time, while you don't "lose" the rest, they are simply outside of the monitor area, a keystroke away, and keeping their original size.
It changed the way I work so much I had to write my own plugin as soon as I moved to Hyprland. You basically forget about the mouse and resizing/moving windows.
I just switched from hyprland (due to those toxicity articles) back to KDE, and was pleasantly surprised at how much better these scrollable WMs are. I use Karousel[1] which is actually implemented as a KWin script, amazingly.
Thank you for the recommendation. Just installed karousel on Plasma 6 and it works wonderfully part for really weird default keyboard shortcuts. Nothing a few minutes in the settings panel couldn't fix.
I'm not exactly sold on the window scrolling idea yet but switching between Karousel and Polonium[1] which is a traditional twm for Kwin is very easy so I'll be experiment with both.
While scripts can provide a similar experience, without Niri or PaperWM the experience will be sub-par. Scrolling WMs amazing with a touchpad and now that Niri supports mouse, I believe it'll be a great experience.
Could you clarify what's missing with this kwin script? The only thing I see is that window stacking doesn't work on wayland.
Personally, I've given up of controlling all pieces of my DE like setting up busses and keyboard shortcuts. KDE already does all of this brilliantly and kwin scripts get the rest so I can have my cake and eat it too.
Touchpad gestures don't work, it would be really nice if I could scroll with my touchpad, although there may be a way using some type of evdev capturer that mimics a shortcut
That is not an overview. An overview would show both sides.
I’m not saying Vaxry is right or did nothing wrong, or that Drew’s portrayal is wrong, but what you linked is just Drew’s personal musings on the situation.
I’ve seen someone be viciously attacked online for being bigoted against people who are less mentally able, only for it to surface after the attacks (and professional consequences) that the “bigotry” was calling someone a moron a few times.
Be careful about taking sides when you have only one side of the story. Not long ago HN harassed a Google employee for supposedly stealing a JavaScript accessibility project, only for it to later come to light that the accuser was dealing with some difficult personal situations that caused him to portray the entire thing lopsidedly.
Nah. You don't have to show both sides when the evidence is stacked. We don't have to publicize the criminal's take when they're unanimously, unambiguously convicted of murder. It's one thing if there is ambiguity, and the collective opinion is undecided, but that's not the case here.
Drew's personal musings on the situation form a reasonable overview in this case. Even a fraction of the evidence publicized is enough to justify the label "toxic."
Wow Niri looks really good. This is basically how I use GNOME. Problem with that is that when I plug into my ultrawide, I have to pull all my windows out of the separate workspaces, and vice-versa when I unplug.
Personally I find the Ubuntu tiling asssistant quite adequate (super+1 super+2 super+3 etc. on the numeric keypad) and haven't really understood what these tiling WMs offer over that.
You gotta try PaperWM Gnome extension. It's hard for me to use Linux the normal way when PaperWM exists. It's very useful on a laptop because it gives you the feeling of having multiple monitors and makes window arrangement trivial.
Scrolling WMs seems to be alt+tab on steroid. Alt+tab is context dependant. Sometimes you'll need to press tab 3 times to go to your note taking app, sometimes 1, sometimes 5. On my computer it's always secondary screen (mod+right) then tag 1 (mod+1). There's still some context, I don't always put everything at the same place, so I've got mod+s to fuzzy find in the windows names.
From a aesthetic perspective, niri has slow animations and has one every time you move. That tells me it's not focused on moving instantly and as fast as possible from one window to another, so it's not for me. Sure you can probably configure it to do it differently, and if it was the only option in town I'm sure I wouldn't be too sad, it seems great. But it's made by and for people with different needs and wants than me.
> It's like having multiple monitors without having multiple monitors.
That's what tiling window managers are at the most basic level for me. 9 tags, 9 monitors in one! But also, I can display multiple tags at once.
It's a personal preference thing. I've never liked tiling WMs. I have no use for tiny little stacked terminals / windows. But, I know folks who will never do anything other than a tiling WM. (I'm writing this from Niri, by the way. It is excellent.)
Tiling WM for me is the ability to use every app full-screened, with any key combination for accessing it. It’s so great on a laptop that I’m — a macOS user for over a decade — unwilling to use anything but a tiling WM on my laptop ever again. It’s a perfect WM for me already, in every single way. An actual tiling thing, when you open multiple windows on one screen, is something that I never use. Or maybe just once in a blue moon.
Oh wow. After bouncing off tiling wms for years, I just enabled PaperWM on PopOS and immediately love it. I kind of want this everywhere - phone, Mac, etc.
Very interesting. I keep using gnome with extensions to make it easy to scroll through workspaces vertically. It works very well for me. Happy to see this.
Niri[1] and PaperWM[2] for example, these Scrolling WMs provide a way to tile your apps in a way that feels natural. It's like having multiple monitors without having multiple monitors.
When I first used PaperWM on Gnome, I just couldn't think of a reason why somebody would even use their computer the normal way when these exist.
[1]: https://github.com/YaLTeR/niri
[2]: https://github.com/paperwm/PaperWM
PS: Check out Niri's releases section for videos.