The fine folks over at /r/minipc Reddit forum keep a whole spreadsheet tracking nearly all the best options with columns for various features.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IjCpi4_z_WfO0G53E_mW...

Personally I purchased a beelink ser7:

- AMD Ryzen™ 7 7840HS

- Radeon780M (RDNA 3)

- 32Gb ram

All for about 700 IIRC

Having recently been in the market for a mini pc myself (my use case were slightly different), I have arrived at the conclusion there is nothing similar to Mac Mini/Mac Studios on the market at the moment. These devices take 10W idle & 80W while running compute heavy tasks like stable diffusion/LLM using it's unified memory - magical.

That being said you might like AsRock's offerring for a more DIY customization - https://www.asrock.com/nettop/index.asp They are supposed to comeout with a AM5+DDR5 version this quarter if you want to wait for that.

Minisforum, beelink have some top of the line offerings supporting AM5 already but their limited upgrade-ability means they will not retain price over the years (you might be better of buying a year older version of their offerings to be more cost effective) unlike with ASRock desk(mini|meets) where you decide what you put into it.

I've been trying every SFF concept I can get my hands on.

The only thing I've found similar in size + capabilities to a Mac Mini is a Steam Deck or Asus ROG Ally.

The base Steam Deck is $350 now and the base Ally is $399.

My Ally with the Z1 Extreme is my primary gaming desktop. I got a nice USB C dock and it runs great on my setup. Anything more demanding than what the handheld can do I just stream through GeForce Now.

Outside of hardcore gaming, I primarily use an M1 Pro laptop (that I got after selling my Mac M2 Mini). Got it refurb, it is still insanely fast, works great for streaming games on GFN, uses basically no power, no heat, great battery, etc.

> These devices take 10W idle & 80W while running compute heavy tasks like stable diffusion/LLM using it's unified memory - magical.

That... sounds like you're describing the average Ryzen APU? My 8-core 5800u feels pretty similar to an M1 Mac Mini in most respects, besides the fact it's in a laptop.

They aren't even close to performance per watt.

M2 Mini maxes out at 50w and when I do full loads it usually doesn't go above 40w.

It gets a Geekbench score of 2633 single core and 9750 multicore.

5800u is 1641 single core and 6451 multicore.

Significantly more performance at half the power draw. Likely 4x the performance per watt.

Does the performance per watt on a mini desktop matter all that much at this scale? Don't get me wrong, it's impressive what ARM is able to pull off, but unless energy prices are crazy high in your area I've never really understood why it matters all that much. Also, the 5800U is 3 years old at this point. Hardly a fair comparison.

TBF In California as of the new year, energy prices are in the range of $0.40/kWh - $0.52/KWh (depending time of day, with 4-8pm being considered peek). In the summer the rates are higher, with peek being about $0.72/kWh.

The 5800u is a 25w chip, though.

The MX chips are ARM so the idle draw is probably better on the Mac, but for most tasks I don't understand how the Ryzen would be disqualified. It's probably the best low-power x86 solution on the market right now; you're missing out if you haven't seen what the Steam Deck can do at 10w.

It's kind of disingenuous to criticise minipc's for "limited upgrade-ability" when the Mac Mini has everything soldered on and is completely non-upgradable (no storage, no memory, no cpu upgrades), and the Mac Studio has memory slots, but non-upgradable and proprietary components.

If you want to judge a small serverlike device for being non-upgradable, the Mac Mini and Mac Studio would completely fail this criteria.

I did not criticize MiniPCs just for it's limited upgrade-ability though. My criticism was that limited upgrade-ability of certain MiniPC makes it a bad "investment" over the years as new hardware comes in since they are essentially laptops without monitors/peripherals. The same cannot be said for Apple devices since they have been known to hold their re-sale value compared to other devices (while being non-upgradable) - i think you will fine an article posted here recently that dives into this.

I've got 4 of these in a proxmox cluster and they are quite decent. My only complaint so far is some weird behaviour out of the usb4 interfaces trying to setup a redundant ring type network with openfabric frr. Speed was great node to node but for the 4 paths that require traversing a node speeds go to 1.5ish MB/sec which makes it unusable. I'm hoping a kernel update comes out with a fix for whatever bug is causing that.

I've actually went and looked over the sub reddit and it's a great resource for exactly what I was looking for (thanks even more for the Google Sheets).

Given the pricepoint and specs of the BeeLink, its availability for shipping in France, and the all-in-one design of the SER7 with USB-4, that seems like a great option to explore.

I will take a deeper look at their other offerings as well.

The hidden pitfall in this question is that the most obvious answers come with external power supplies. Some are half the size of the computer.

e.g. https://www.servethehome.com/lenovo-thinkcentre-m920x-tiny-r...

Some models can be powered over USB-C, allowing them to run off compact GaN chargers, monitors, etc.

https://www.amazon.com/MINISFORUM-7940HS-Radeon-USB3-2-PCIe4...

Yeah, but most SFF computers are considerably smaller than Mac Mini. Most are easily VESA mountable too so you can stuff them on the back of monitor to get them off the desk. The Mac Mini is huge by comparison and disappointingly even though the base M1/M2 models are basically half empty lack any sort of storage expansion. So while a random SFF PC can have a couple SSDs in the case, the Mac Mini needs external drives eating up space and ports.

I have a work-issued Lenovo ThinkCentre M Tiny...it's so infuriatingly loud! The fans seem to spin up at completely random times that have nothing to do with workload, and they're incredibly loud.

System76 sells the Meerkat. You cannot buy it with Windows installed but it does support Windows according to their support page:

https://system76.com/desktops/meerkat

https://support.system76.com/articles/windows

Not bad, $599 for the entry-level version, though that is exactly at parity with the cheapest Mac mini.

I am a big "mini PC" guy. We've owned a bunch of NUCs, custom SFF builds, custom laptops, etc to try and get generally the best bang for the buck in a small form factor.

My recommendations:

- Intel NUC. You can pickup a used Skull Canyon NUC if you can find one at a reasonable price, will easily handle all the games and things you mentioned. I owned one and loved it!

- Asus ROG Ally with the Z1. $399 at Best Buy, can handle all your gaming needs, only needs a single USB C hub to connect to everything. I currently use the Z1 Extreme version (more powerful) as my PRIMARY desktop. I love it.

- Get a cheap laptop. Find something with the bare minimum specs to run the things you need and just keep it closed.

- Build your own SFF. Find a really tiny case, get a really tiny power supply, and get an APU from AMD that has a built-in GPU. They run cool, they are cheap (though not as cheap as a cheap laptop or steam deck), and you can customize whatever you want. You can get pretty tiny with these, but not exactly Mac Mini sized.

- Get a base iPad (~$230 on sale), Samsung tablet ($99+), Android stick (< $99), whatever and do a remote desktop. I use GeForce Now for a ton of my gaming and Microsoft just released a new "Windows as an app" concept for iOS that gives you a remote desktop.

> Asus ROG Ally with the Z1. $399 at Best Buy, can handle all your gaming needs, only needs a single USB C hub to connect to everything. I currently use the Z1 Extreme version (more powerful) as my PRIMARY desktop. I love it.

My girlfriend also uses a Rog Ally as her primary desktop and she loves it: it has a compact form factor, handles all the games she plays perfectly (apparently better than more classical mini PCs like Beelinks), as well as somewhat heavy software such as Photoshop.

It’s a shame it’s marketed just as a portable gaming device when it’s in fact a very capable mini PC.

There are some new AMD-based NUC-type systems which seem to be picking up the NUC mantle that Intel abandoned.

https://www.amd.com/en/products/embedded-minipc-solutions

Serve The Home is also a big fan and reviews anything in this form factor that comes out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzXkGrVBQ_4

I just got an Asus PN53 with the Ryzen 7735H processor at work. Officially it only supports 32GB but I slapped two 32GB sticks in there for 64GB total and it worked just fine. Takes a minute or two to train the memory on first boot though!

Anyway, with a fast PCIe 4.0 NVMe OS disk it's plenty fast for me. Benchmarks puts it on par with my Ryzen 3800X at home.

Supports additional NVMe and a 2.5" SATA so fair bit of storage, and sports 2.5GbE.

Haven't tried to stress the GPU, but feels smooth in Windows, YouTube in Firefox and all that jazz.

There's also the Akasa Turing Duo case[1] if you want to make it fanless.

[1]: https://www.akasa.com.tw/update.php?tpl=product/product.deta...

You could look into the new Minis Forum MS 01 (which is already on sale?): https://store.minisforum.com/products/minisforum-ms-01

Starts from $549 for the barebones with an i9-12900H. You could argue it is a better option as it has an internal PCIe slot for a half-slot GPU, which will be much less bulk than a mini PC + eGPU. Plus, it would probably be cheaper since eGPUs aren't cheap.

ETA Prime did a review on it the other day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUlptjU0vFQ

I bought an Intel NUC for my Windows work. I don't play games on it though. They have a bunch of variants.

https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=intel+nuc

My wife had the high end NUC (Skull Canyon) with the dedicated AMD GPU.

Absolutely KILLER machine for the size and price. The next generation gaming NUCs were so, so much bigger. I can't stand them.

Highly recommend the NUC line overall!

Worth knowing if you're buying an Intel NUC: "On July 18, 2023, Intel and ASUS announced that they had agreed on a term sheet for a non-exclusive license for ASUS to manufacture, sell, and support 10th to 13th Gen NUC systems. ASUS will be responsible for NUC sales distribution for 10th to 13th Gen NUC systems. For 13th Gen NUC and future generations, ASUS will select and create new ASUS NUC SKUs." https://www.asus.com/us/content/nuc-overview/

Yeah, the NUC form factor is going to be closest to what OP is looking for. My only concern is the desire for games, I don't think there are very many tiny PCs that are also capable of excellent gaming—if it's just steam library history, I bet these will still do okay with their integrated graphics.

HP G series mini computers. Reliable machines, especially the g6 and g8.

E.g. g8 https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c07588846

++ on the 1 liter pc: https://www.servethehome.com/perfect-project-tinyminimicro-p...

The good part is that you can upgrade ram/storage/interfaces. The bad part (as far as a tidy integrated package) is that they have external PSUs.

I have a trouble-free HP G series but it isn't clear to me what would differentiate it from the equivalent Lenovo or Dell.

The next interesting task is to add an external GPU [0] to make it a modular computer similar to the Snow White concept [1].

0. https://egpu.io/exp-gdc-th3p4g2-thunderbolt-gpu-dock-review/

1. https://www.designboom.com/technology/hartmut-esslingers-ear...

The Lenovo ThinkStation Tiny Workstation series looks to be about the right form factor (can be mounted on the back of a monitor too). Only missing criteria is a dedicated GPU, but Iris Xe iGPU's outperform a GTX 260, so for only gaming it might be an OK compromise. They can be had cheaply second-hand.

If you're willing to go slightly larger, Mini-ITX PCs are still quite small, but have the benefit of all desktop-class hardware and easier upgrades. There are too many options here to make a specific recommedation, but if you search for Mini ITX on /r/battlestations, you can find some inspiration.

If you don't need a lot of performance (depending on how old those games are) you can get a second-hand HP EliteDesk 705 G5 Mini or Lenovo M75q Tiny (both with AMD Ryzen 3200GE / Vega 8) for very little money.

The minisforum UM790 Pro is something I've looked at too.

https://store.minisforum.com/products/minisforum-um790-pro

It can handle many games at good settings already. It also has USB 4.0 which will allow you to connect it to an eGPU for higher end gaming.

EDIT: Today, I'm running a Lenovo P14s AMD Gen 4 which is slightly slower. For the price, the performance has been amazing.

I paid $590 for the minisforum UM700 in 2021 [0], now worth ~$215. Ryzen 7 3750H. Upgraded the 16GB RAM to 32GB which was another 50 bucks or something I can't remember.

Been my daily driver desktop since 2021.

I play Victoria 3, Cities Skylines, Valheim. And develop on it. Both Windows programs and also Linux stuff SSH-ed into my beefier dev servers.

I've also done some light video recording and editing.

I've run out of disk space now so I think I'll grab an external drive. But I'd buy one of these again.

[0] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B093BBLB4K/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...

If you're flexible on the NTFS storage requirement, then one of the newer Windows handhelds like Lenovo Legion Go or Asus ROG Ally could be a good fit.

They both contain the AMD Z1 Extreme SOC, which not only has 8 cores but contains a pretty good iGPU (780M is comparable to Nvidia's 1050Ti in benchmarks). Added bonus is that it contains a battery and display, so very portable and fairly good gaming machines.

Maybe get an external HDD adapter for when you need to access old files.

I like Lenovo's Thinkcenter Tiny mini business PCs. Considering your performance requirements you might be able to get away with an older/off lease version.

I bought this some time ago: https://www.amazon.de/-/en/gp/product/B0CNQV8MLC/ (MINIS FORUM BD770i) and though I'm using it as a homelab server, it's a pretty capable desktop machine. Not sure if it fits your GPU requirements, of course.

Steam Deck as a left of field option with the best supported gaming outside windows and very competent linux machine when docked (might want an alternative OS such as Bazzite[0]).

Fan noise audible if it's permanently loaded up but that's like many of the knockoff NUC or litre PCs.

0: https://github.com/ublue-os/bazzite/

It’s kinda pricey compared to solutions without a built-in screen, battery, and controller. And I’m not sure how well it’d serve these other use cases, or playing games from iso files—I’m sure that last thing could work, at least in many cases, but no way it’s gonna be as straightforward for that as Windows. I also find the desktop to be so janky that I dread dropping into it to do anything (I do have one).

[edit] the fans are also pretty loud if it’s actually doing anything. Not an issue with headphones, might be otherwise.

> Bazzite

off topic, but does anyone know if this[0] is considered best practices for Fedora-based distros? the Dockerfile format already feels like you're fighting against legacy cruft for specialized containers; for specifying a general purpose, desktop container, it seems unsustainable

[0] https://github.com/ublue-os/bazzite/blob/main/Containerfile

This sounds like the perfect use case for Linux. Regardless, there are plenty of options outside the mac world. I also recommend: beelink ser7. Particularity since it supports USB4 which is compatible with Thunderbolt. It means you can expand it in the future with external PCI cards. Also it supports ddr5, which is quite neat. Linux will let you play old games via steam and then more.

Windows Dev Kit - https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/d/windows-dev-kit-2023/94K0P... Powered by an ARM chip. The form factor is the same as a Mac Mini. Ideal for light-mid workload.

You might find these interesting, though I have never used them.

https://www.khadas.com/

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/khadas-mind

I am really happy with my Minis EM680. With FSR3 Frame Generation it's a smooth 60 on high setting in cyberpunk.

https://store.minisforum.com/products/minisforum-em680

Dell Optiplex and HP Elitedesk both have lines of SFF boxes similar in size to the Mac Mini. You can get great deals on refurbed ones that have cycled out of business use. They’re also pretty easy to work on if you want to upgrade components.

I'm very happy with the Dell 3260 as a workstation for dev work (it's available w/ Ubuntu preinstalled). Discrete GPUs are a configuration option but I have no idea how they spec out for gaming.

I used some Beelink Mini PCs for that. I found these on Amazon, pretty good compromise quality/price.

My father recently got one for a low-powered, always-on workstation that he can sync stuff to. It looks like these run the gamut of recent AMD cards, so I thought they looked promising.

I've had a good experience with a Geekom mini pc so far.