This is probably the only tech acquisition that's ever made me sad. I just hate Adobe so much. The nightmare of their installer, the weird store with horrible designs popping up when you activate normal ui stuff, the difficulty in canceling a subscription, and the stasis in their product and ui. Oh and the sloppiness of Lightroom on mac with it's weird ui and that it didn't even import and manage photos well.
I've been so happy to have Adobe out of my life these last 10 years. I never even cared about the cost.
And figma has been so admirable, one of the best browser based apps. Always squeezing incredible performance out of the web with their crazy c++ engine. And their fast pace of delivering new features, often reworking ui just for the craft of it. It's been fun to just read the release notes.
I can't think of any other company to which my relationship as a customer has swung so completely as Adobe. In the 2000s, their tools were unsurpassed, and I was happy to pay the premium prices they asked (though I'd skip versions to save money). When Creative Suite was discontinued, that was a pretty abrupt turn, as I had no interest in a subscription for software I only used for personal projects.
And yet, I stayed on with Lightroom, thinking that so long as Adobe still had competition in that market, they'd keep it a one-off license. Then, one day, upon discovering some compatibility issues with the latest MacOS and the version of Lightroom I was using, I thought I'd check what the latest version of LR had to offer – and discovered it had gone subscription-only as well, meaning my entire photo library would now be trapped on my old laptop unless I paid a monthly fee forever.
It was painful researching and trialing alternatives, ultimately migrating my library over to Capture One, but it turned me so completely against Adobe that I've actively requested employers not assign me a Creative Cloud license (the tools fortunately only being tangential to my role).
I find myself coming back to this Steve Jobs quote more and more:
"It turns out the same thing can happen in technology companies that get monopolies, like IBM or Xerox. If you were a product person at IBM or Xerox, so you make a better copier or computer. So what? When you have monopoly market share, the company's not any more successful.
So the people that can make the company more successful are sales and marketing people, and they end up running the companies. And the product people get driven out of the decision making forums, and the companies forget what it means to make great products. The product sensibility and the product genius that brought them to that monopolistic position gets rotted out by people running these companies that have no conception of a good product versus a bad product.
They have no conception of the craftsmanship that's required to take a good idea and turn it into a good product. And they really have no feeling in their hearts, usually, about wanting to really help the customers."
Creatives build companies, and if you are not careful, sales will destroy them.
MS's Office collaborative cloudish stuff is a prime example of this.
I don't know how many times my team has ganged up on a document in Google Cloud and collaboratively banged it out. Likewise, I can only remember a couple times I've done it with Office and not ended up with n different copies of the doc that we had to manually merge back together, if we even could.
Office on the web actually does this really well now. The desktop app is a little more glitchy, but Google doesn't even have one of those. I really like tracked changes in Word on the web. Microsoft has come a real long way in the last three years.
Does this include products like Word Online? Because that product is awful.
The visual bugs are annoying and the document-syncing with multiple editing people feels like 2005. As of last year, it couldn't even render a .docx file properly. It tried to render input fields as images. LibreOffice Writer opened the doc better than /Word/ Online.
I am a student who has access to office online and have tried to encourage my peers to use it for group projects so that we don't have to use Google. However after repeatedly having to make up excuses for their neglected product, I have given up and just request anonymous editing links for Google Docs.
Completely different experience for me. The desktop app is solid (although latest patches made it unstable + the visual change is just not good), but the collaboration tools are horrible to use.
You dont know where files are saved, you cannot connect a file to a file, lots of options seem to be disabled (e.g. collaborative Excel on Teams).
> Office on the web actually does this really well now.
Did you miss an /s? I just tried using this again and it's slow and buggy. Office has a lot of advantages, but collaborative document editing is not one of them.
I won't touch any web app because I'm perfectly fine using my Vimium shortcuts that I don't need them to interfere with a web app that could have been just a native app...
You must have been using an old version of MS Office, or had it improperly configured. We use Office for real time collaboration on documents all the time. You can put a file on SharePoint, then have multiple users edit live using a mix of desktop, mobile, and web applications. The changes are immediately visible and this doesn't create different copies.
Microsoft Office, Teams, and SharePoint have comprehensive APIs so you can export any metadata you want. It's no different from competing Google products in that regard.
MS Office is actually a counter example of this. It was much worse than Lotus 1-2-3, Lotus Notes, and WordPerfect. They crushed the competition because of vampiric sales strategies.
Early versions of the individual Microsoft Office products might have lacked some features compared to competitors. Their real innovation was building an integrated suite with consistent user experience. That was tremendously valuable to casual users.
Microsoft certainly did some shitty things in terms of unethical and monopolistic sales practices, but their competitors also made some amazingly stupid strategic errors. In particular WordPerfect was slow to port their product to Windows. And when they finally did, they kept it too similar to the legacy MS-DOS version which was poison for gaining new sales.
Word for Windows was NOT worse than WordPerfect. WordPerfect continued using their primitive inline codes after GUIs were the norm.
Word integrated an entire programming language (WordBasic), with which you could not just create macros, but entire applications complete with dialog boxes. I used WordBasic to add features to Word years before they were offered, such as page numbering that spanned documents.
They crushed the competition, because competition management was quite bad with their decisions, a good example of their bad decisions was sticking to MS-DOS until it was too late.
Josh from the Game Helpin' Squad actually tries to get some work done. Or, rather, he complains about how people didn't appreciate it when he got some work done.
It is also interesting to see what designers actually think about the future of Figma. I think, the market is always in move. https://youtu.be/hDHByVS2I6Q
There is a lesson to be had there for sure. It all started when they bought Macromedia. Happens to many if the greats, look at Cisco,IBM, AT&T they all have that happen to them after which the only way decision makers know how to make great products is to buy other companies.
There is a difference between taking out the competition on acquiring IP by taking over vs doing it to innovate. Google has gone down this road already from what I've seen but Microsoft impresses me how they are keeping balance.
From 2015-2019 I found this quote massively ironic as it seemed Apple had fallen prey to the same thing. They were trying to sell Gimpbooks with 2 ports and unreliable keyboards for a €1700 base price, and iPhones that were milquetoast iterations of past one's kept creeping up €75-150 per year. Their sales growth was cratering.
People love to say that reducing Ive's involvement is what righted the ship, but I feel internally there must have been way more management house cleaning that they so massively reversed course with the Macbook line, and the price reduction + increased innovation on the iPhone line.
> ...Genzo Hattori, the son of founder Kintaro, recognized that the existing company structure of both factories was limiting their ability to innovate. In 1953 he decided to install different management groups for the Kameido and Nagano factories and have them perform their research and development independently....
It's a great quote for what has happened to the USA in almost every single area, industry, government, education, religious thought, political thought.
I recently found out MARS yes the candy company has become the largest owner of Veterinarian offices in the USA. It really is palpable how everything is on a runaway train and we can all see it yet are powerless to stop it.
Also cat food. They invest in a reef conservation technique too, and named a reef in Indo - where they were trialing said technique - after one of their catfood brands. The logo says "more coral today, more fish tomorrow" and there's a picture of a cat.
Started in Europe with pet food (90's). Slowly moved into pet pharma and scientific research. Then in 2007 they started moving into the vet game. Seems like a pretty natural evolution. Wonder if they'll try to buy Chewy.
It happens here in a unique way, partly because of the legal structure we have around public corporations. In the US, institutional investors want to see revenue growth, even over profits. Way more sexy. And they have ways to arm-twist management by influencing the board, agitating for new board members, etc. They work to frighten other stockholders into supporting them and then management has to go along. Sarbanes-Oxley might be waved around, too.
Normally, a cash-cow business would be a great thing to own. Unfortunately the accumulated cash plus (feared or actual) slowing of growth equal a big red flag.
Ironically when Apple acquired NeXT, it was essentially a reverse take over, since almost every significant executive and technical position of the merged company was from NeXT.
It was NeXT that saved Apple with their tools (including Interface Builder and the use of Objective-C) that gave Apple the technological lead that allowed them to grow into the company they are today.
Scott Forstall was the NeXT guy that headed the iOS (née iPhone OS)team and we know how that turned out.
I think BeOS was a serious contender as the next generation MacOS. But BeOS didn't have Steve Jobs. Buying NeXT meant bringing Jobs back at the helm of Apple.
It could have gone the other way too, like how Boeing's purchase of McDonnell Douglas, and McDonnel Douglas's takeover of key Boeing positions ended up eroding Boeing's culture of engineering excellence.
It was also market timing too. The iPhone was not Forstall's first attempt at a device like this. He was part of the team that was trying to develop something similar back in the era of the Apple Newton in the late 90s. And all of that were seeded from two of the three form factors (tab, pad, and board) that Xerox Parc experimented with back in the 70s, along with the mouse, the GUI, and OOP.
Compared to NeXTStep, BeOS was a wildly incomplete tech demo of a relatively incremental improvement to the classic MacOS formula. It was only a “serious contender” in the media and in the headcanon of Apple’s fan base.
BeOS was also multi-platform (PPC and later IA-32), like NeXTStep. Anyway, yes, it was rough around the edges, but it was way more accessible; the hardware was a lot less expensive, and when sold as a standalone OS, was also reasonably priced for a hobbyist. There were a lot of great ideas in there, especially compared to the Windows, MacOS, and the various other *nixes of the time.
I'm not saying Apple made the wrong choice to be reverse-acquired by NeXT, obviously, they've done pretty well. But an alternate universe where Apple acquired BeOS is well within the imagination.
In an alternate universe where Apple acquired Be, we'd see another Copland-esque slow moving catastrophe as the skeletal and unproven Be technology was cobbled together with everything needed to execute a plausible transition plan for the existing System 7 platform. This had every prospect of turning the Macintosh into another Amiga: even if a BeOS technology transition was a miraculous success, Apple's prospects as a company would be largely unchanged, because the real problems at Apple wasn't technology, it was a lack of leadership.
Would a Be acquisition do anything about the hundreds of engineers fritting away at dead ends like Pippin, OpenDoc and NewtonOS? Would it have stopped Apple from selling awful flawed hardware like the Power Macintosh 5000 and 6000 series? Unlikely. It's easy to forget just how ridiculous the Apple Computer of 1996 was. It was a company destined to — and deserved to — be consigned to the history books.
As valuable as the NeXT technology was to Apple, its importance is utterly dwarfed by the actions of Steve Jobs to rip away at the junk and rebuild the company in every sense of the word.
Compared to NeXTStep, BeOS was a wildly incomplete tech demo
So true. Even though the market share of NeXTStep never got very high, it was a robust, battle-tested operating system that ran on multiple processor architectures with real software like FreeHand and Lotus Improv, an amazing spreadsheet for the time that would hold up pretty well today.
And interestingly enough, one of the main BeOS guys ended up at Apple and worked on APFS.
I tried both back in the day, and tech demo is exactly right (a really cool tech demo, to be sure! but still). The OS came with a simple task manager-type app that had two buttons on it that could be used to disable either processor (to demonstrate how it affected system performance, I guess?). Thought I, "Hmm, surely they wouldn't let you turn off both.." But nope; everything immediately halted.
By comparison, NeXTStep was quite polished, certainly by the time it was available for x86, which is when I used it.
Agree; while they had some very nice ideas (like taking their filesystem capabilities and tracker and make it into basic email), they did some things that would be fatal: like locking their ABI into gcc 2.95 C++ ABI. Which was immediately a problem, when gcc 3.0 came out. Ugh.
My friend had an Newton and I was in awe. It made Palm look like a pocket calculator.
Got killed when Jobs left out of spite.
But that was back when Apple could make very simple hardware do amazing things.
NeXT was mind blowing when you look back. All of that just turned into OSX, iOS, etc. Don’t know that my computer is really any more empowering now. I still mostly just use a browser, mail client, and terminal.
Yes indeed it was. I ran OS X in beta on a G4 for a year as my main OS. It was that innovative and great. Like magically having the “Linux on the desktop” dream come true overnight.
It was clunky and slow at the time but it was so awesome it hardly mattered.
Reminds me of the Simpsons when the Newton is used to make a note to beat up Martin and the hand writing recognition is slightly off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6qxixgQJ4M
When 2007 rolled around, broadband internet was widely available; search, mapping, social media had caught on. People were ready to take the internet with them in their pocket.
To echo the sibling comments, this is incorrect. NeXT lives on today in every Mac, iPhone, iPad, and every other Apple device. When Apple bought NeXT they used it as a foundation for OS X, which went on to power every device Apple makes or has made.
The kind of creatives we're talking about, kind of by definition, do things differently (not to ape Apple's old slogan too much). That's AKA risk, and, yes, sometimes it will lead to ruin.
But it's also the only way to move the area forward.
It's interesting to consider how Apple and NeXT were both nearing collapse in the late 1990s, and yet combining the two resulted, over the next 20 years, in perhaps the most successful tech company of all time.
Apple needed Steve Jobs back then. It needs another Steve Jobs now as well. Under Tim Cook, Apple has been great in terms of stock-market price and profitability, but the company clearly lacks a unifying vision for the future. They've bought themself time, but sooner rather than later, we'll see Apple decline and it won't look good.
The Xerox PARC vision (tabs, pads, boards, gui, mouse, OOP) have largely played out. Smart TVs have not fulfilled the the potential for boards. As an industry, we collectively turned away from the potential of user-modifiable software (Smalltalk, Hypercard).
AI/ML, VR, AR, as far as I know, wasn’t coming out of PARC. I am not sure they have the same kind of mass market appeal … or maybe, we do not have someone like a Steve Jobs that could bring it to the masses.
Just because you don't see any Apple skunkworks VR/AR headsets getting left in a motel room [1] and they don't report how much they are investing in that new product line (rumored to be more in total than Meta's 10B/y) - you should not underestimate the potential for immersive spatial computing to do to the iPhone what the iPhone did to the iPod.
this is true, to be fair .. anyone remember "Xaos Tools" (video effects), Audion or when Marc Cantor became so personally offensive that the business people paid him to leave? it is true.. end of innocence stories here
This is mere hand-wringing; Steve Jobs never cared to consider the aspects of our political system that leads to this, on the contrary, he positively exploited them for his own gain, e.g. patents and his app store tyranny. Steve Jobs is among the worst people to talk about this kind of neo-feudalism.
I used to beta test for them. A few months back I took at look at the current version of Audition to see what I'd been missing out on since the days of CS6 nearly a decade ago.
Three things have changed. It now includes one third-party plugin (that anyone could purchase) offering an alternative volume meter - the equivalent of a slightly different color histogram for photo/video software. It offers some new presets with friendlier names, for a feature that already existed. And they unified version numbers with other products. EDIT: Also some bug fixes, but poorly documented and tbh pretty rare edge cases. I still use CS6 in production and bugs are not a source of worry.
That's it. Anyone who has been paying a subscription for this has been getting ripped off wholesale. The product is great - but it was great before Adobe acquired it (when it used to be called CoolEdit) and Adobe actually removed functionality from it along the way, like dumping MIDI support because they didn't want to cater to musicians.
Any designers/engineers that understand or use the product left long ago. A standout example of this in their playlists feature - you can select a bunch of marked regions in a waveform or project and add them to a separate list, where you can rearrange their playback order freely - very useful if you are structuring a radio program or a podcast. Except...once you've found an arrangement you like, you can't do anything else with it. You can't render the audio to a new file, generate a new project, export it, save the list to a text file, or copy it to the clipboard, or anything else. They started building it 10 years ago and then never bothered to finish it.
I don't really think of Adobe as a software company any more. They're IP landlords who spend the bare minimum on integration and maintenance of their properties while continuously jacking up the rent.
CoolEdit! haven't heard that name in a while. Yeah, Adobe used to be ultra-respected, especially in the 90's as Photoshop took the world by storm. These days, as you can see, the response to "X acquired by Adobe" is met with universal disappointment (except by those who have Adobe stock, I guess).
Acid 2.0 was for loops and basically a DAW vs the SoundForge sound design angle. I made some wicked tracks in Acid back in the day. Also became a Sony product, still works pretty much the same.
Why the past tense? Which tools have been surpassed? Have Photoshop been surpassed? I am genuinely curious here.
I take note of Capture One, but is it an "acceptable yet technically inferior alternative that I picked because I don't agree with Adobe business practices" (which I think is a valid reason) or a viable alternative even for someone who doesn't have a problem dealing with Adobe and their subscription model.
Affinity Designer, Photo, and Publisher have been a breath of fresh air for the last few years. They have you pay once, not a subscription. The features keep coming at a great pace while retaining a very sensible UI.
Reminds me of the early days when pro Mac software was well designed and reasonably priced; not the bloatware we get from Adobe
and Microsoft today, for example.
I’ve been a Capture One user for several years and it’s a more powerful tool than Lightroom for sure. Layer capability removes the need to go to PS for most simple use cases. Their color tools were much better previously as well but LR has some major recent updates. I also like their session catalog model, but that’s optional and mostly personal preference. It’s not as well designed IMO, a bit more of a power user tool where you can tweak the UI to your liking, but in terms of functionality it’s as good or better than LR.
Affinity Photo is also on the same level as PS, I don’t know about “surpassed” but Adobe is no longer the clear leader.
I gave up GIMP for Krita years ago and have yet to see a reason to change (I still use Adobe as well, but for FOSS tools, Krita has stayed at the top for me)
Actually I'm using Darktable with great success for post processing my raw files on Linux and Mac. On the paid side Affinity & CaptureOne provide great alternatives.
I’ve tried it for years and years, paid customer. Had issues with Sony files and now have issues with Nikon Z raw files. C1 generates artifacts in transitions, terrible ones. Filed a bug report and got met with the worst customer support in my life, “devs don’t wanna fix this, use ICC profiles”, as if ICC profiles would fix bad processing of the files…
Which is sad because the software in general is a lot better than Lightroom, but your first point just isn’t true and that should be the primary thing to get right in a raw processor. Also, don’t conflate over sharpening and extra saturation for better quality (C1 defaults)
Is there some sort of cloud storage integration? One thing I like about Lightroom CC is how seemlessly I can move between devices and not have to worry about having large HDDs and backups.
I'm not a designer full time, but have dabbled over my career and in my youth used Photoshop and Premiere heavily. I'd say Pixelmator and Sketch were more approachable, discoverable and had better workflows. This made the combo of being easier to pick up than Adobe tools and more powerful for professionals.
I was able to use Figma productively in my first day of using it. The added collaboration features with Figma's App preview mode and collaboration in the tool made me never look at anything else when I needed to design something.
Capture One and Lightroom are definitely fighting in the same class. Both are true pro-grade tools. Some people and some workflows will prefer one of the two, but that's how preferences work.
So, in double-blind tests, most people prefer the 'Pepsi' analogue, but when they know or think they know which one is the 'Coke' analogue, the choose that one?
. o O ( I don't really know which is the Pepsi and which is the Coke, in this matchup. )
> discovered it had gone subscription-only as well, meaning my entire photo library would now be trapped on my old laptop unless I paid a monthly fee forever.
I empathize, but isn't all this the reason they would fork out so much for figma?
I mean, people hated them for going subscription with the tools that used to be desktop, but they absolutely adore figma that has never been anything but subscription. It's confusing psychology at play here...
> people hated them for going subscription with the tools that used to be desktop, but they absolutely adore figma that has never been anything but subscription
I think a big part of it is exactly that, that Figma's value proposition as a subscription was always clear from the beginning, that it's not just a design tool but a real-time, collaborative design environment. Sketch was always the better choice for solo, side-project work, because it was a one-off purchase with no need for a cloud component (its more recent direction to try to become a cloud-first service has unfortunately only served to highlight its shortcomings versus Figma).
Creative Suite never had a value proposition as a subscription apart from becoming a predictable cost center for businesses. Tacking on an inferior version of Dropbox, making the whole suite subscription-only, and calling it Creative Cloud did a pretty decent job of alienating those who didn't fall into that "predictable cost center" market.
A lot of amateur photographers used Lightroom and were willing to pay a one off purchase price whereas a monthly cost for something you might hardly use in a month is too expensive. Figma has a high percentage of users who use it regularly as part of their paying jobs. It also has online features, which you expect to pay continuously for. Lightroom Classic had no online features.
I still use Lightroom 6, the last standalone version, so I haven’t found anything else with such good combination of library organisation & editing. But no way I’ll ever pay a monthly subscription for the current, slightly better version or the less capable cloud version.
And the cloud version of LR does offer cool features if you use them. I just need my iPad now when traveling. Can proof and start edits right there, then continue on the computer. I pull my images onto the iPad and let the cloud sync and back them up.
The only system that might be able to replace the workflow I currently use is Apple Photos, but it doesn't deal that well with RAWs and editing outside of the Photos.app.
> I can't think of any other company to which my relationship as a customer has swung so completely as Adobe.
Autodesk is very similar in many ways to Adobe, just in a slightly different software market. Wouldn't at all surprise me if they merge up at some future point into some evil monstrosity of user-hostility + borderline useful software.
I hope they go at each other like two big evil flaming titans in a massive battle that mortally wounds both of them.
I sometimes sit and weigh out which one of them does more evil to stop innovation in the “digital creativity” space in the name of monopolistic greed.
So far I think Adobe is winning because their products are more average consumer facing. But Autodesk sure seems to be racing to the bottom with its complete monopoly on 3D everything.
I can't believe I'm not the only one. Something similar happened to me with one of their iPad painting apps. They told me it would be completely free for artists. Went to save my files and put them on my computer for printing, only to learn they were locked within the adobe cloud cage of despair
The Lightroom subscription is particularly painful because not only did Lightroom move to a subscription, they also “updated” it to a version with fewer features.
I really want to move off Lightroom, to something that doesn’t change a subscription, but getting close to a terabyte of data out of that cloud with all the edits and into something else is painful.
For a large company, they also have pretty shady pricing. Like their “annual plan, paid monthly”. You’d think you’re just paying for the monthly subscription, but they hide the fact that you have to pay a penalty for early cancellation in the fine print.
There are dark patterns in Adobe's pricing plans up the wazoo. And each year it seems that they change their UI just a little more to try to lock your data into their Creative Cloud. Photoshop now tries to save your files to the Creative Cloud (instead of your computer) by default.
I think the concern has definitely gone to an anti-trust level. Adobe packages Lightroom for free with Photoshop, probably with Capture One directly in their sights. Anti-trust definitely needs a reinvigoration.
Sounds like Adobe has taken a page out of Microsoft’s book. That is, defaulting saving to their paid cloud storage solution instead of the user’s local system.
It’s a scummy tactic but it must pay if companies keep doing it. I suspect it preys mostly on the vulnerable less-tech-savvy users.
That pissed me off so much when it got me. I can count the number of dark patterns I've ever fallen for (well, and eventually found out about) on one finger.
It's so stupid too, I'm happy paying subscriptions for things and happy paying a fair price but being tricked into doing it - never again, Adobe. They target their own customers with it to scrape a few more dollars into the current quarter, I guess. Probably some executive bonus targets or something.
Literally the only time I've ever fallen for a dark pattern.
Shame that I've managed to avoid the most aggressive dark patterns used by scammers and shady practioners. The one that got me was from a $150B company.
And depending on your use case, bloated. In all the features Photoshop has gained since 6.0, 7.0, and CS1, only a tiny handful add anything of value for my usage. If 7.0 or CS1 were ported to modern operating systems they would fill my needs well and then some.
This is another reason why alternatives such as Affinity Photo and Pixelmator are increasingly enticing; their core feature sets have reached near-parity with that of Photoshop for many and so Photoshop offers very little extra value.
My wife tried to cancel her subscription but the agent on the live chat just quickly and out of the blue gave her 4 months of free subscription. Not sure if this is unusual or part of their playbook.
Part of their retention playbook. I needed Illustrator for a short term project. Only needed it for less than a month so paid for a 30 day term. Almost forgot about it but went to cancel it on the last day. They gave me a month for free automatically. No customer service rep was involved.
- It was rather annoying I had to check & double-check that I was only paying for 30 days and not getting ensnared in the annual plan with monthly payments & a big cancellation fee. Next time I need a vector editor, I'll just buy one from the app store.
Yes, their "3 months for 3" and then: oh, now you're locked into a paying 12 month contract was absolutely the last straw for me. Swore off their products.
Always wondered why an indie app developer hasn't just decided to work their image-editor app up as "the new Fireworks."
Many other image-editor apps do now take Fireworks' same non-destructive hybrid editing approach... kind of. But they're always missing one thing or another. Either:
1. they aren't multiplatform (can't get "standard" adoption like Fireworks if you're macOS-only)
2. they don't go far enough with the vector editing capabilities (e.g. Fireworks allows you to apply arbitrary gradients/textures/other image assets as the stroke and fill of vector shapes)
3. they don't go far enough with the non-destructiveness (e.g. Fireworks applies filter-effects to both vector and raster layers, as non-destructive "filter layers" bound to a parent layer — effectively "functional lenses" for images; can edit the base layer "underneath" these transformation layers, and see the transformed output change as a result. Of course, you can always "flatten" the transformations into the layer, to then edit the post-transformed version of the layer. Though IMHO this could be taken even further, with "brush modifications" being just another kind of transformation layer!)
4. they use project file formats that consist of entire directory bundles, or file formats opaque to the OS preview mechanism. Fireworks just stored projects as an extension chunk of a PNG file; and every OS knows how to preview PNG files. (And, if you didn't care about the project, you could just treat the PNG file as a PNG file, putting it through ImageMagick or MSPaint or whatever, which would strip the optional chunks, thus "exporting" the project to PNG without needing the program that created it!)
Affinity Designer is a good vector/bitmap combo app. It closely parallels Illustrator features but adds in basic bitmap editing. If you pair it with Affinity Photo you get most of the Photoshop features. The same files can be shared with both without any loss of fidelity.
I’ve had the same question for years! There are a few tools that have tried over the years, but nothing that has stuck around.
And I get that the pixel-perfect design and slicing from the Fireworks era isn’t as useful in today’s world of responsive design and multiple screen sizes and variable screen densities, where CSS and JavaScript plays a much larger role, but I still wish we had a successor.
Because as you said, although most apps now do the hybrid vector/faster thing, nothing really matches what we had with Fireworks.
The only program I ever used that felt like it was really gunning for Fireworks was, weirdly, a BeOS-exclusive app called e-Picture. It was a little buggy, but still terrific. (That last sentence sums up the entire BeOS ecosystem circa 1999, granted, which was tiny yet still bigger than I suspect most people know.)
PNG format has a space for arbitrary metadata. Fireworks stored their proprietary save format inside this, and also rendered the file to flat PNG on save, meaning that you could preview fireworks files in anything that could read PNGs (although the file size would be huge).
Unfortunately not...For one, combining bitmap and vector editing is just not there...Also, while I like Sketch and have used it extensively, I haven't missed anything of it with Figma.
Agree. Macromedia products were amazing for their time. Dreamweaver, Flash (Creating flash apps including ActionScript), Fireworks with vector + bitmap, were all very cool until Adobe acquired them
The largest Pictionary-like web app for the good part of a decade or so (early 2000s to early 2010s) was a Shockwave/Director app. Newer clones are yet to match its amazing features. Unfortunately isketch.net got too old for the newer generations to pick it up. I can only guess what happened to the site. The technical debt must have been too great to port it to a newer platform, or perhaps the devs/maintainers moved on.
This was already basically Sketch years and years before Sketch even existed. They killed it because Adobe as a company has a complete lack of vision and even understanding of the tools they own.
This is 100% right. Fireworks was Sketch with better bitmap/filter/styling support. Removing it was a cost saving move right as Sketch/Figma were coming to own UI design.
I still use my copy of Fireworks for everything graphics related that I need. Yes, it doesn't do everything as well compared to modern suites but the UI was just so easy for a developer to use. Even Homesite is still better than most editors I've ever used.
To me, Sketch is a spiritual successor of Fireworks.
I loved Fireworks, but it had far too many quirks that weren't improved, and when I discovered Sketch I was amazed how many thing that did bother me a lot in Fireworks were made just right in Sketch.
I considered putting Adobe in a VM because i didn't want the 30,000 extra processes running when I install it. Its embarrassingly fragmented and bad. I absolutely dread the moment when I need to install CS on my new machine.
I went a step further, or maybe backward, and I have a separate computer that I connect to with AnyDesk and it has all the Adobe crap installed on it.
Also, our company credit card got replaced, and the process of updating the card and re-activating Creative Cloud took two weeks. It got canceled August 29 and only yesterday, September 14, was I able to launch Illustrator without a nag window. I hate Adobe.
How the hell did Photoshop get so bloated? The featureset hasn't changed all that much since CS3 era, and yet CS3 ran at half the memory and at twice the speed. What the hell happened?
Adobe Photoshop has always been bloated. It’s the professional standard so artists will literally buy a fast computer just to run it. There’s worse examples of professional software like Autodesk where a workstation class PC is only a fraction of the software licensing cost. And is more crash prone.
I've been running ACad daily on a 3rd gen i5 with no dGPU. FWIW I don't use the 3D things as I use it for architectural works but I don't see any issues, runs fine.
Maybe 15 years ago I ended up fencing the CC stuff off with firewall rules because it was the fastest way to deal with its awfulness.
With the next computer for half a year it was always this queasy, i should probably install illustrator now, but once I do I can never go back. Maybe I can hold out another few weeks. This is for a corporate paid for version that would make my work easier. Eventually I buckled and it ruined another computer.
I’m not terribly upset because I think it could be worse if others bought them, but I think they’ve stagnated and had lots of stability problems since the purchase.
I don't agree on the 'stagnated' part. A lot has come out of Github since that acquisition. I am actually impressed how it has managed to mature into a fully enterprise grade ecosystem yet somehow maintaining its allure and user friendliness that smaller developer teams enjoy.
I don’t think it’s enterprise at all. I can’t create groups to sync with AD. I can’t link organizations. I can’t link accounts to AD to pull even info like name.
They’ve added a lot of “social media” functions like feeds and stuff.
I like what they’ve done with Actions though, that’s neat.
I'm a very heavy slack user for work and personal workspaces and haven't seen anything bad yet, though I also don't pay the bill for those organizations. Im sure over time it may get worse, but for the meantime this seems to be one of those rare acquisitions where the child company is doing so well the parent may be afraid to touch it (rightfully so).
> Microsoft buying Github
This one haunts my dreams. Microsoft is drawing a huuuuge moat around the developer experience. I have to imagine they will tighten the noose within the next 5 years. Ditto for Gaming as they now own half the games industry: EA, Activision/Blizzard, Obsidian, and many many more.
Tried to run away from Adobe and they still got me, RIP... Will have to move again once they ruin Figma with feature overload.
Simplicity is so hard to achieve with design and Figma has done a great job striking the balance with feature set and simplicity. All the while delivering a super responsive platform.
Still running Creative Suite 6 in a virtual machine (for security isolation and compatibility) as I only use the product 2-3 times a year and refuse to give in to Adobe's rent-seeking.
Adobe's stock is down 17% on the news. So, it's bad for consumers. Bad for Adobe. Probably only good for the ego of a few executives and investment bankers.
They may have considered that by bundling Figma's functionality into their cloud subscription, with the number of new subscribers that would bring, that revenue attributable to that added functionality would be much more than 400 million annually.
It would need to be much, much more than 400 million to justify the purchase, and I'm not sure numbers of that size will ever materialize.
Another way to look at it is, what amount of investment would Adobe need to make to bring equivalent functionality in-house. Certainly less than 20 billion, by an order of magnitude at least. But then you have to wait, and manage with inspiration and dedication, and possibly fail. Not for the faint of heart.
My guess is there are a lot of Figma employees who would rather not be working for Adobe, regardless of whatever incentives they get in the deal. It's hard to overstate how little regard software designers have for Adobe.
It gives me whiplash to see Sean Parent's deeply technical public talks on Adobe's experiences with C++, and Adobe's disdain for customers (and presumably other programmers' disdain for Adobe).
Well they wont all be massive now that mostly VCs and sometimes founders soak up all the benefits from an acquisition before the regular employees get much.
Well, good for the founders and investors anyways, who knows how many employees had meaningful holdings that outweigh the hurt of being integrated into Adobe
Well if it's any consolation the market also feels sad about this [0]. ADBE is down 15% as of this writing.
My guess is because, given the current market, you don't really need to spent money acquiring potential competitors. As rate hikes continue (and likely will for the foreseeable future) I suspect many of the non-ipo's non-profitable startups will just die on the vine. No reason to spend $20 Billion to make sure they're not a threat, this isn't 2018.
Only open and free software can defeat the likes of Adobe.
Can't wait for the dominance of Photoshop to be ended by gimp and ffmpeg, I've found that they work fairly well for whatever editing I need. Maybe open source variety of Figma also exist?
The one thing I know about is Penpot see https://penpot.app/ which is by the team that designed Taiga.io - It's fully open-source and I think tries to solve some of the same problems but it's still in beta. I'm not much of a designer but yesterday started to teach myself Figma only to find this acquisition happening. I've resisted installing creative cloud for years and hearing various people's experiences with Adobe makes me feel like this was a wise decision.
Our university subscribes to Adobe Products Suit- when all of their functionality can be replicated with FOSS. They sent out a survey about this before they started the subscription and I answered negatively to that, to no avail. So that's where our tuition/grant/loan/savings money are going.
It’s not illegal to be a monopoly; it’s illegal to use your monopoly to profoundly disadvantage your competitors.
An example was Microsoft threatening to cancel HP’s Windows license if they bundled Netscape Navigator instead of Internet Explorer back in the browser war days.
This comment makes me sad because Adobe used to be an exceptional example of how good professional software could be, and now I can’t disagree with you at all. I don’t mean to disparage anyone at Adobe, but I think as a business it’s become a place good things get acquired to die.
Every single one of these corporate consolidations makes me sad. Competition and heterogeneity are critical for capitalism to function and everyone one of these mergers reduces it.
Figma was not generating profit and they also started doing some shady practices according to this guy. I was not Figma user so I don't know if that is true but this seems like an interesting video opinion on it https://youtu.be/xpCqZwMekCI
Never had an issue with this tbh, it's always very easy. Manage account > cancel plan.
Hell, if you subscribe but then cancel within the same day, they give you a full refund. I've abused this a few times if I just need to do something quick - sub, use it for a few hours, cancel, and it doesn't cost me anything.
I did a trial of Creative Suite on my mac. When it was time to uninstall, I couldn't do that using Creative Cloud Uninstaller. Because, apparently I have to uninstall photoshop and other softwares from Creative Cloud App before uninstalling CC. I couldn't uninstall photoshop etc. because my login to CC App didn't work. So, I contacted Adobe, there was some issue with getting 2FA to my email for some reason. I had to reset my mac just to get rid of Adobe spywares.
Adobe pioneered the "click cancel plan but we will offer you some stuff that you don't care about in order to stop you from cancelling your plan" dark pattern.
Then on the support call they will straight up pretend that none of their systems work in order to stop you from cancelling.
I have literally cancelled (and later re-obtained) subscriptions to CC at least 15 times. It hasn't been an issue, and I've never needed to call anyone.
They do offer you things, but those things tend to be free months. Not random stuff you won't care about.
If I'm trying to cancel I don't care about free months or free storage space or discount on their new product. those are random things I don't care about.
To cancel a yearly plan, you must a) talk to their support staff (not available as an option in the portal) and b) pay the remainder of the period anyway.
The only time you can freely modify your subscription is one month before your renewal date.
Adobe could eliminate this loophole by simply charging the difference (between what they actually paid and what they would have paid on a monthly play) when they opt out.
Presumably the current arrangement is some kind of creative accounting exercise though, and such a pro-customer policy might blow it up.
That doesn't sound right to me either though. You enter a contract for 12 months at a reduced price. The company knows it will get 12reduced price. Now the customer wants to drop out after 7 months and you pay 7delta.
What you just have done is eliminate the monthly price. There can never be an annual contract anymore. That seems beyond silly. Is it really Adobe's fault for you trying to either be sneaky or simply malicious?
I do this because I specifically assumed using Adobe there would be some maniacal dark pattern they wouldn’t really let me cancel sooner than a year despite what the main text stated. Seems like I was correct, reading this thread.
I'm paying via Paypal so I've just cancelled the adobe subscription through their subscription management panel. Is there any reason why this might be a bad idea?
PS I just remembered that I forgot to cancel the subscription and they want to charge me 40 quid for the rest of the year. I even had a reminder set, but I missed it. So annoying.
> Given the amount of information regarding adobe being a bunch of cntz over the last many years, you got anyone you actually want to blame?
I was asking for advice, so I’m a bit confused about your comment.
I’ve been using them since photoshop 5 and generally had a positive opinion for most of that time. I learned about the whole annual sub/weekly payments issue last year.
Come to think of it, I do blame them for dark UX and making the process unnecessarily difficult (which has worked in my case perfectly).
I have an adobe subscription, I never heard of Figma. I am sure their product is great, but it is a niche product. Figma is not worth 20B as a standalone company. Adobe will integrate Figma’s technology into Adobe’s suite of products and will make it available to the masses. I say it is a good thing that Adobe is acquiring Figma.
Change is hard; As a Figma consumer you are probably uncomfortable with the change, but Adobe acquiring is better than Figma going shutting down due to lack of mass adoption.
You’re definitely not aware of how Figma changed the game and how essential it is to web design today. Whether you’re a solo designer, a freelancer, a startup, a tech company, a UX team in a major company… Figma just works. And just makes sense. Their velocity is fantastic. They launch features every few months. The performance is incredible. The ease of use is phenomenal. The collaboration capabilities are perfectly integrated. Even developers use it and love it.
They have taken the market by storm. And it’s a huge market.
You don’t seem to be part of that target market, and that’s fine. But saying Figma joining Adobe is a plus just shows how little you know about Figma and the web design world in general.
The thing about Adobe is that their products are used by common people and professionals. I edit 10 of my personal photos a year, still I have an Adobe subscription which includes Photoshop and Lightroom.
Had Figma been part of the Adobe Suite I would have at-least downloaded it and tried it. As great as Figma is, reach of their product is limited, Adobe is giving Figma‘s technology the reach they would have never gotten as a standalone company.
I said Figma is not worth 20 billion as a standalone company. It might be worth 20 billion to Adobe. Adobe can do to Figma what Facebook did to Instagram, Facebook took a relatively small startup Instagram and made it into a global juggernaut worth hundreds of billions in value.
Similar story with ByteDance and Musically, how many of you have used Musically before Bytedance bought it and re-branded it as TikTok.
Heads up, then, it's the de-facto standard in UX / UI design these days. There are alternatives, but this is the go-to tool people are training on, using at work, etc. It's not some unknown tool that's being saved by Adobe out of obscurity.
> Change is hard; As a Figma consumer you are probably uncomfortable with the change, but Adobe acquiring is better than Figma going shutting down due to lack of mass adoption
Hilariously bad take. Figma has very strong adoption. Lacking the same scale as Adobe doesn't mean it has bad adoption.
Hilariously ignorant. I've seen steady adoption into businesses like large banks for UX and design work over the last two years, in domains previously dominated by Adobe. This acquisition looks like a defensive one. They are not saving Figma from death in obscurity, hence the price tag.
I've been so happy to have Adobe out of my life these last 10 years. I never even cared about the cost.
And figma has been so admirable, one of the best browser based apps. Always squeezing incredible performance out of the web with their crazy c++ engine. And their fast pace of delivering new features, often reworking ui just for the craft of it. It's been fun to just read the release notes.
https://www.figma.com/blog/webassembly-cut-figmas-load-time-...
Perhaps the silver lining will be the talent scattering, moving to and founding other companies, but for today this sucks.