At this point, "Consistent shortcuts" is the main "feature" keeping me on MacOS.
Cmd+, opens preferences in every app.
Cmd+[ or ] goes "back" and "forward", in every app that has those concepts
Cmd+Shift+[ or ] switches tabs, in every app that has tabs, except a handful of stupid chat apps who think they're too good for it.
Cmd+W always closes the current tab, if the app has tabs, (or current window, if the app has no tabs), and does not quit the app – that's what Cmd+Q is for.
Etc.
Also notice how PageUp / PageDn, keys that my keyboard doesn't even have, are not used for crucial shortcuts like these.
Seemingly small things, but absolutely maddening when developers don't respect the common convention, or when a common convention does not exist.
I always thought this consistency was a feature of the app ecosystem and app developer attitudes rather than the OS itself, so I'm not sure what RavynOS can do to make third party apps obey their idea of consistent shortcuts? The wiki doesn't mention anything about shortcuts despite the language on the home page.
"Consistent shortcuts" is the main "feature" keeping me on KDE.
Cmd+Shift+, opens preferences in every app.
Alt+Left or Right (or Back or Forward) goes "back" and "forward", in every app that has those concepts
Cmd+Tab or Cmd+Shift-Tab switches tabs, in every app that has tabs.
Cmd+W closes the current tab by default, if the app has tabs, (or current window, if the app has no tabs)
Cmd+Q quits the app.
Etc.
What's again so special about macOS?
One needs only to avoid GTK stuff, Electron, and Windows Software, and one gets perfectly consistent behavior.
And those behaviors can be "even" configured globally! (That's something to mention specially of course when talking to Mac users as such an advanced feature like "configurability" is notoriously missing in the Apple universe).
> One needs only to avoid GTK stuff, Electron, and Windows Software, and one gets perfectly consistent behavior.
So as long as one avoids all the inconsistencies then one gets consistent shortcuts? ;) Only using Qt apps on Linux is very hard. A lot of good apps are GTK or Electron. On macOS there is no GTK & Qt divide and Electron apps are very good at implementing macOS shortcuts. Hence you get more consistent bindings.
Also, many bindings are absent even in Qt app. For instance, on macOS you have Emacs-style bindings in every app (Ctrl+a, Ctrl+p, Ctrl+k, etc.). Those are very useful. You can get them on Linux (at leasts in GTK apps) but it's very hacky and it conflicts with a bunch of stuff, whereas they fit right in on macOS. Cmd+Shift+/ to search all menus is also super useful and I don't think you can do that on KDE.
> And those behaviors can be "even" configured globally! (That's something to mention specially of course when talking to Mac users as such an advanced feature like "configurability" is notoriously missing in the Apple universe).
If you don't think macOS can be configured then you are mistaken. It can't be configured to the extend that KDE can that is true (some of us consider that to be a feature). But a lot is still possible. As an example, kindaVim adds vim-style keybindings to every app which is kinda cool.
I have hardly any GTK app installed and I would not know what I'm missing. (Firefox uses GTK but it has it's own UI anyway). Electron? That's the plague of modern times. Besides VSCode (which I will switch away in a blink as soon as the alternatives are ready) I don't use any Electron peep. Also here I would not know what I'm missing.
But of course, it's only me. YMMV
> Cmd+Shift+/ to search all menus is also super useful and I don't think you can do that on KDE.
Global menu is of course integrated in KDE. You can even use it form KRunner (of course with fuzzy search).
> If you don't think macOS can be configured then you are mistaken.
Apple products are made for the mass market. That's one of the reasons they actually follow the same philosophy as Gnome. What this means regarding options everybody knows I guess:
Options are hard to maintain and "confuse the user".
So Apple products are dumbed down even more with every release. (They even replace perfectly fine working software with "touch-ware" in the attempt to make everything more tailored to the causal users).
I'm glad you like KDE and by all means keep using it. It sounds like it's the right DE for you.
That being said, your statements about macOS sounds like they are coming from someone who's never used it and are making a fairly uninformed straw-man opinions about it. For instance, the statement "Apple products are dumbed down even more with every release" is just demonstrably false. Apple products gets more features with every release. For instance, the last macOS release got Shortcuts, Focus Modes, and Universal Control. All of which are power user features.
This funny "windows key" has any use in Firefox? I didn't know.
Firefox is a mess! (On every OS I think). I'm already happy to have proper looking dialogs by now…
There is a feature request hanging around to be able to configure shortcuts in FF. Nothing happened until now. Since many many years…
That's the problem if there is no choice.
You can only use Mozilla crap, or Google spy-ware.
Imho a replacement for the whole insanity that "the web" is is long overdue. But I guess nothing will ever happen. (Except maybe if our future AI-Overlords would show mercy).
> Cmd+Shift+/ to search all menus is also super useful and I don't think you can do that on KDE.
Not sure if this is what you're talking about, but KDE now has KCommandBar (or some name like that?), a HUD menu that can be invoked with Ctrl+Alt+I.
Though I as a KDE fan concede that the need for some GTK stuff is kinda disappointing, for me Firefox and Inkscape (can't care less about Electron stuff, though). Inkscape AppImages have turned out very handy, but alas the Firefox ones don't bundle GTK so you can't have a GTK-free system if you want to use Firefox.
Still though I don't think something as configurable as keyboard bindings are too much of a deal to promote or convince people about a DE or a OS.
Which is true on MacOS too. Emacs doesn't care about Mac keybindings. Even worse, the MacOS "Emacs keybindings" for things like text fields aren't totally consistent with actual Emacs. Oh and Emacs was until super recently bundled into the OS too so even out of the box it wasn't totally consistent.
I'm sure there's other programs on MacOS that don't follow the global key bindings.
I find Mac less consistent, especially around home/end key behavior. In some places, home goes to the start of a page, in others, the start of a line. In addition, the key combinations and gui behavior are annoying. Ever try to cmd+tab to a minimized window? You have to do finger gymnastics to add an extra key to get that window to open. Other than the cli, I've seen little benefit in using a Mac vs. a decent PC with just about any Linux distro or Windows.
Since you mention GTK, I assume that must be the root of my problem – I keep trying Ubuntu and some other GNOME distros, haven't tried KDE. Ubuntu was definitely a mess when it comes to consistent shortcuts when I last tried it (a couple years ago).
Yes, the lacking usability of GTK (3 and later) apps is the root of all problems with GTK desktops.
But the issues aren't Linux specific of course.
KDE is by now one of the most lightweight¹, stable, and usable desktops by far.
And KDE is completely configurable regarding look&feel. You can make it by now even look and behave like any other desktop with one click using global "themes" (the feature switches more than the theme; that's why I've put the term in quotes).
¹ KDE beats mostly everything in this point, except maybe raw WMs and LXQt. Yes, it's more lightweight than say the GTK3 based Xfce by now… The "magic" lies to one part in Qt that gets optimized for embedded applications now for many years, and all the work in optimizing KDE itself after it got bad rep one and half decade ago for being bloated (which was indeed true back than; but they learned the lesson; only the internet FUD never dies).
For those more familiar with Windows and probably most Linux conventions, Home/End won’t behave how you want but they move to the start/end of a scrollable view (which IMO is more useful).
In most any app ^a will be your Home equivalent and ^e will be your End equivalent. If that sounds weird or weirdly familiar… a subset of emacs key bindings are built in for basically all native macOS text inputs. If you get weird and hook up a full keyboard to iOS devices, works pretty much the same!
(I personally use ^t quite a lot because I accidentally rtanspose letters while typing all too frequently)
Woah, I love this thread. I didn't know about the tab or preference shortcuts. And I used ^A and ^E in terminal but didn't know it worked in other apps. Are these all documented somewhere?
Besides the documentation linked by sibling comment, I believe you can also still customize them per user in ~/Library/KeyBindings/DefaultKeyBinding.dict, and reference the system defaults in /System/Library/KeyBindings/DefaultKeyBinding.dict.
Some of the offenders surprisingly include newer Apple apps like Books. Some of the commands are not included with shortcuts. Seems like they weren't thinking too much about desktop users when they ported it from iOS.
Speaking of this specialness... having the main system shortcut modifier – Cmd – physically located under both your thumbs is priceless.
In contrast, the Ctrl keys are usually located such that they're best accessed with your pinkies. Who thought that making people use their weakest fingers for the most common shortcuts is a good idea?
Could you remap your keys to have Ctrl keys under the thumbs in Windows / Linux? Yes, but then:
1) It will become hard to use Ctrl-based text navigation shortcuts (such as Ctrl+left to navigate one word left) with one hand, and
2) Ctrl+Tab will now use the same physical keys as Alt+Tab used to, and your brain will never heal from this (at least mine refuses to).
It's also worth considering changing your keyboard itself. I use a Pinky4 and have all the modifiers easily reachable by thumb. Backspace and space as well. There is a gap of no keys in the corners that means the furthest left thumb key on the left half is still as far right as alt/command on traditional keyboards.
Because in MacOS those arrow-based text shortcuts are Alt-based, not Ctrl-based, and right Alt is already located right next to the arrow keys where it's most convenient for those particular shortcuts. It does not need any remapping since in MacOS the Alt key is not used for most other system shortcuts, unlike the Ctrl key on Windows/Linux.
> At least on Linux there are no issues. It's mostly clicking one checkbox, and changing "Alt-Tab" to "Ctrl-Tab".
Been there tried that, on Ubuntu, last attempt a couple years ago. Does not work, many apps have Ctrl+tab hard coded to switch between their tabs, so if you make Ctrl+tab the system shortcut for switching apps, you can't switch tabs in those hardcoding apps anymore.
> Because in MacOS those arrow-based text shortcuts are Alt-based, not Ctrl-based, and right Alt is already located right next to the arrow keys where it's most convenient for those particular shortcuts.
Where's the problem to tick a checkbox and change that?
> Been there tried that, on Ubuntu, last attempt a couple years ago. Does not work, many apps have Ctrl+tab hard coded to switch between their tabs, so if you make Ctrl+tab the system shortcut for switching apps, you can't switch tabs in those hardcoding apps anymore.
Once again, that are GTK problems.
Just avoid GTK (v3 and later) and Electron and there are no usability issues. Simple as that. But I'm repeating myself.
> What checkbox do you mean? (I understood the one about ctrl+tab, but not this one)
Maybe I'm confused, but I have an right Ctrl and a right Alt. Both keys are left to the arrow keys. I thought you wanted to switch around also those two keys. That would be ticking a checkbox in the keyboard config afik.
> I'll give KDE a shot next time, but I think some apps I use heavily are actually GTK apps (such as Firefox), we'll see how it goes.
I also use Firefox. It uses GTK. But this makes no difference as Firefox does its own thing anyway. It uses GTK only under the hood.
The two most annoying things with Firefox are solvable: You can use custom.css to switch around the OK / Cancel buttons in dialogs (thankfully they don't use "real" GTK dialogs but some XUL, otherwise you would need to patch the GTK libs) and one can have proper file-dialogs by now through the desktop-portal interface. So Firefox remains its own thing but at least the GTK parts don't creep up anymore.
Oh, and global menu does not work in FF (even it works for "normal" GTK apps). Also they still didn't manage to make keyboard shortcuts configurable. But that are FF issues on any desktop or OS…
> Maybe I'm confused, but I have an right Ctrl and a right Alt. Both keys are left to the arrow keys. I thought you wanted to switch around also those two keys. That would be ticking a checkbox in the keyboard config afik.
Same layout here. I want the key that's used for arrow-based text navigation shortcuts (Alt on MacOS, Ctrl elsewhere) to be physically the rightmost key, right next to the arrow keys, then I can press it with my index finger and press the arrow with another finger. Otherwise, if that key is farther from the arrow keys, I find it hard to press those shortcuts. At the same time, I want the key that's used for most system shortcuts such as Ctrl+N / Cmd+N to be under my right thumb because it's the strongest and otherwise underused finger.
So, on non-MacOS systems I end up wanting right Ctrl to be in two different places at once, since those systems use Ctrl for both types of shortcuts mentioned above. So unless I have a big enough keyboard to have two *right* Ctrl keys on my keyboard, I can't just remap the keys to solve this.
Whereas on MacOS it's fine as-is because it uses Alt for arrow-based and Cmd for other system shortcuts respectively, and those keys are already where I want them to be.
Anyways, this is getting too much about me, I doubt it's interesting to anyone. Cheers.
Maybe I'm the only one, but I remapped Cmd to Ctrl. After a lifetime of Windows and Linux using Ctrl as the main modifier key, this made things much easier for me. Having it be pinkie based has never been an issue. At least not for me. Others will vary, of course.
Have you tried mapping Ctrl to your CapsLock key? Pressed without any combination - Esc, with some other key(s) - Ctrl. It is under pinky, but in a very comfortable position, just like Enter.
The big one for me is that Cmd+C and Cmd+V do the exact same thing in Terminal as they do everywhere else, unlike with terminal emulators under Linux. Copy and paste are too ingrained from decades of Mac/Win use to fight against muscle memory for that one exception.
Cmd+, opens preferences in every app.
Cmd+[ or ] goes "back" and "forward", in every app that has those concepts
Cmd+Shift+[ or ] switches tabs, in every app that has tabs, except a handful of stupid chat apps who think they're too good for it.
Cmd+W always closes the current tab, if the app has tabs, (or current window, if the app has no tabs), and does not quit the app – that's what Cmd+Q is for.
Etc.
Also notice how PageUp / PageDn, keys that my keyboard doesn't even have, are not used for crucial shortcuts like these.
Seemingly small things, but absolutely maddening when developers don't respect the common convention, or when a common convention does not exist.
I always thought this consistency was a feature of the app ecosystem and app developer attitudes rather than the OS itself, so I'm not sure what RavynOS can do to make third party apps obey their idea of consistent shortcuts? The wiki doesn't mention anything about shortcuts despite the language on the home page.