After graduation I emigrated from Spain to the UK at first, then to Canada, in order to make a better living. I succeeded beyond my wildest expectations, yet I have mixed feelings about it.
In my twenties I was young and hungry. It felt like an adventure, a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to work on projects that didn't exist back home. It was also a way to achieve independence and prove to myself that I had what it took to succeed alone and compete with what I perceived to be better educated engineers.
In my thirties I started to notice how I had become estranged from friends and family. My parents began to look old at first, and eventually weak and frail. Those fears turned true when I lost my dad in my late thirties. I've heard other people talk about the shock of seeing your parent age in discrete increments every time they travel back home, so I know I am not alone in this.
Now in my forties I finally have some free time to look back and wonder whether it was worth it. From this vantage point, a simpler life close to friends and family looks pleasant, but at the same time I figure that if I had stayed then I would have always wondered what it would have been like if I had moved overseas.
So, it's complex. These days I'm thinking of possibly going back to Spain. It has better weather and food, if nothing else.
Very similar situation on our end and it was one of the reasons to return. We used to visit parents 2-3 times a year. Every time you go, you see your parents getting older and you start having all sorts of thoughts about it.
about seeing parents aging, smartphones with camera and video communication make this a lot easier. ever since i gave my mother a smartphone, our contact changed from an occasional email every few months to daily messages and regular sharing of photos.
Almost 8 years after, I don't have any intentions of going back. Sure, I miss family, friends and local food.
But living under the conditions I had to live back then was too harsh. I was born from a very poor family and it was terrible there, even as a software developer. I had to really work my ass off freelancing, making websites from when I was 10 and pay for my university. Things have improved for developers lately there, with many American companies offering very good compensation and now they can afford even to own a propriety. But the bigger problems are still there.
Money isn't everything. It sucks if you live well but there's poverty everywhere, anytime you could be killed. This is Brazil. I lost my uncle when I was 6 because he got shot in the head while working selling sandwiches... leaving behind his 8 year daughter... and it made me realize that nothing is more important than having money, which is to have some peace of mind, and this is what I get here, in Germany.
People here are rude, there are problems as well like xenophobia, being disrespected or not taken seriously by police as a foreigner, even being thought of selling illegal drugs(yet... I work in IT and I'm basically a nerd), eventually some nazi assholes giving me trouble, and of course, the people that don't have any sensibility for people who suffered hardships in their lives because they've got it easy... stuff that I truly dislike that even back home didn't used to happen. BUT it isn't anywhere as bad as it was back home.
Maybe if you are immigrating from a first world country with a nice family with money and so on it might look different. I see a lot of Americans that come here for an adventure and stay only a year or two and move back. Some of them even had their parents busting $200k in a Harvard degree for them. When you have that sort of life, I think it might be hard to appreciate how nice living here is, but if you came out of nowhere and see how there's a social system here and you can start living instead of feeling always in a "survival" state, it feels good.
I guess we all share this rare opportunity which is to be alive and live. But we are all given a very different hand of cards. Moving to Germany changed quite a few cards for me for the better.
I understand you totally. Brazil is a diverse country and our situations were far different.
In my case I was already working remotely for a US company, and living in a small city. My salary was 50% smaller than now, but the jet salary was actually higher due to cost of living and taxes. Life was relaxed. I lived in a small town so not a lot of crime worries. I routinely forgot my kindle outside and it was fine. I only locked up when going to bed.
Americans are far more violent, crass, and "independent" (selfish) than their European counterparts, despite having greater opportunities for a high income.
I've seen someone get knocked unconscious because he called a gentleman out for skipping to the front a restroom queue. I've seen trivial altercations over nonsense[1]. Words (air) lead to violence far too often. Whereas in Europe, people just ignore you, or brush you off as ridiculous/insane.
And you can't complain about crime because it's racist[2]. The ethnic strife is increasingly reminiscent of the Balkans. I wouldn't be surprised if the U.S. fractionalizes within the next few generations.
I don't feel safe, ever. I work from home and order everything via Amazon.
My plan is to earn enough to buy a house plus a 5-year cushion, then return to Europe or explore Southeast Asia.
In the suburbs I'm about as safe as in Europe. Americans outside of big cities roll their eyes at what's "accepted" in big cities too. If you're in the cities and recoil at reading this, it doesn't have to be this way. It's not about rich/poor, developed vs developing, etc. Go experience cities in Asia/Europe where the "bad parts of town" are much smaller or even non existent, where you can walk home at 3:00AM with zero fear of being mugged or assaulted for no reason.
Thank you for sharing. I've considered the suburbs, but noticed that they are limited in amenities, require significant driving, and tend to get lonely. And do I need to mention the elevated risk of school shootings?
Even if you try to meet in the middle–such as a small, walkable college town–it seems they also have issues, e.g. being rife with belligerent, violent drunks because alcohol is paramount to the "college experience" and virtue signaling is at all-time highs.
Europeans tend to hold their liquor better because it's introduced earlier on. I've also yet to see dominance displays[1] used to signal high status, a behavior akin to primates. I attribute this to sexual competition, which isn't as stressful in Europe because of more lax attitudes towards sexuality and stricter penalties/attitudes towards violence.
I personally think the best option is to make your money in the U.S., or have a thriving business that can be operated remotely, then move ~15 minutes outside of a European or Asian city center, though I'm open to alternatives.
You’ve got no idea whether this person needs help or not. You should keep your speculations to yourself. Cities are lonely places. They’re rife with the issues mentioned in their comment. Casual violence, unprovoked racial tensions, reckless drivers and other scores of brutal, alienating behaviour.
The way I improved my economic status and social skills, being able to master several European languages, alongside the programming ones, has been a great experience.
Having lost touch with many friends and relatives, not being able to follow some cousins growing up, being made aware of someone's illness or death, without being able to be present, or having thoughts where would I live as last country, not so much.
So while I don't fully regret it, as I wouldn't be the same without those experiences living 20 years abroad, I surely have mixed feelings about it, and might in retrospective taken other decisions along the path.
As a young person it is easy to take for granted your parents' health and see old age and death only as as some remote future possibility, instead of the relentless proximity that it is.
I wish I had traveled home more often. Then again, work left me with very little energy left and the only times I took an airplane was to visit my aging family. So maybe there wasn't much I could have done.
I emigrated to the UK, spent 10 years there and moved back.
For me things worked out quite well in terms of education, career and etc. The thing that frustrated most was that London is very expensive and salaries don't match the cost of living,so you get subpar quality on pretty much everything unless you shovel money. Also,I don't quite miss those who look down on you just because you have a foreign accent.
Ultimately it depends on how entrenched you were in your original culture.
Personally I don’t regret it one bit. Built (and still building!) a life here; actively working for being “just another person in the society”. However I have almost zero connection to the society I came from, and not much to look forward to if I were to go back. I hated the culture; and couldn’t come to terms with it - even though it works well for some.
That being said if the only reason was economical I think it wouldn’t have been worth it. Especially in our line of work remote work for developed countries yield a much higher quality of life. Just my 2c.
Moving from one German country to another is not immigration. It's probably less of a change than moving from Nebraska to Texas.
The xenophobic quip just confirms why it would have been difficult for you to live in more diverse places.
A little empathy goes a long way. Maybe there are more differences between Germany and Austria than meets the eye.
As for their grandparents, there is nothing easy about growing up in the epicenter of massive global conflict, particularly when you are on the losing side. I'm thankful I did not have to experience war like my grandparents did, and they were on the "winning" side.
The implication is life in the US now is the same as their grandparents had in cruel times. It appears to be an indirect insult at US quality of life. Or at least that’s how I read it.
People emigrate to places where they can have a better lifestyle. But that's not a static situation. Very often, the economic situation becomes reversed, with the new country going downhill, and the home country booming again.
It's quite common for people to return to their home country as the economic conditions become variable. It's not a failure, just that conditions change all the time.
Sometimes young people emigrate to 'make their fortune'. Then they come back to their more familiar homeland bearing those riches with them, and looking for a spouse and a home. That's a different situation again.
Regret is a strong word, there are pros and cons! I’m from the same country as you and lived in the UK for a year before moving to Canada, where I’ve been for seven years. So eight years total.
Family from both me and my wife (who is from yet another country) are the only things that make me think about it sometimes. It sucks seeing your loved ones getting old and not being there day to day.
We do video call a lot, and try to travel twice per year to each country, the end goal is to bring my family to Canada with family sponsorship.
Since you've been here for seven years, you might have been lucky enough to benefit from the housing madness.
House prices are a strongly disheartening thing about this country. Right now I see more of a future for my family back in our country, problems and all, in large part because of housing. Rent is absurd, and house prices more so. I consider moving to BC interior where housing is somewhat cheaper, but prices still insanely not worth it. At least back home I can own a property, build wealth and have some peace of mind + early retirement.
I’ve had a house in Brazil before moving and sold it recently. I honestly don’t care about owning a house anymore too much, I prefer to be liquid.
In Vancouver you can make 200-400k a year as a very senior software dev / manager. You can live very comfortably and buy a house if you so wish within a couple of years. I also think with interest rates rising the prices will crash a bit within the next two years.
I used to not care about owning, but then I experienced the Vancouver rental market. Long term I don't want to live under the stress of maybe having to leave the house in 30 days because the landlord wants to kick me out so he can increase the rent.
Yes you can make 200-400k. After taxes and rent, that is more than halved. In the end of the day 400k in Vancouver is less than 150k in Brazil. Full remote salaries of 200-250k are totally possible nowadays.
Yes but I wouldn’t want to live in Brazil, so it’s a dealbreaker right there.
Also, you can rent in a rental purposed place and the chances of being kicked out is close to zero. I live in the westend and many people on my building have been here for 15+ year, which builds a very nice community.
Also it isn’t halved … we do pay high taxes and IMO that’s a good thing for society
On 210k you’re making 12k net per month , 6k in rent … really ?! I pay 2300 for a 1000sqft 2bdr
Ah, apartments. That is a deal-breaker to me. I tried that, horrible experience. Broken elevators, crazy false fire alarms once per month. Had to go up and down 32 floors with my pregnant wife a couple of times. No one cared, everyone acted like it was normal Canadian condo experience. Would rather go back to Brazil than live in an apartment here again.
Yeah, I'm very much pro progressive tax as well. Not complaining about it, just stating they exist and are high. Also I don't pay 6k rent, but I do pay more than you for the detached house I "chose" (limited options).
I don't know, I guess I'm underwhelmed. I expected more, and better.
Yeah seems like we’ve had very different experiences. I haven’t had bad experiences renting and have lived in a couple of different places, never in a building with more than 4 floors tho. A lane way house could be a good compromise for you. Or a townhouse.
I have a single friend renting a sfh and both him and his wife bring 150k+ per year, he pays double what I do. Don’t get me wrong, prices of housing is obscene. But in Brazil it also gotten more expensive, I’ve more than doubled my money selling my house in ~8y over there. Price of food at least in my city (Florianópolis) can be more expensive than Vancouver. Going out has gotten crazy expensive too over there. I was impressed when I went back on December
Sorry, I find that hard to believe (about food). I was in Floripa a couple of years ago and ate a huge platter of seafood for like 100 reais. The equivalent 20 CAD doesn't even buy a hamburger in Vancouver.
Yeah, I know inflation has been wild back home, but it is still a long, long way from being as unaffordable as here. My semi monthly supermarket run here goes around 400 CAD, and back home would be more like 1000 BRL.
To each their own. I'm glad you have been having a great time and wish you the best.
100 reais is an appetizer of shrimps now a days, with like 15 shrimps. I think you’re out of touch of just how expensive it has gotten. Wish you the best too.
I get some regrets but realize its a choice and each path has benefits and drawbacks. I've missed loads of family, the big holiday house, my father is getting old, my childhood friends. I miss the lifestyle and culture. I dont feel American, my kids do though. I thought I'd move back after a few decades but now see that the children never will, which makes it another tough choice. My career here has been great, if it wasn't in a highly paid area I'd never stay.
I relate to this completely. Having lived in three countries now, I find it difficult to pin down one as my _identity_. Also, the fact that these borders have been drawn arbitrarily doesn't help my predicament much.
You are correct. More critically, your comment shines the spotlight on the fact that such minor nuances in learning a second language mark immigrants. In certain contexts it can be a limiting factor.
I'm a second generation immigrant. My father, in spite of several degrees and excellent engineering experience never accomplished as much as he had hoped because he hadn't mastered flawless English.
They are not correct. Emigrate or immigrate are both valid ways to frame this question. "Do you regret leaving your home country?" vs "Do you regret choosing to live in another?" Two sides of the same coin.
I'm a native English speaker and would choose immigrate in this situation, since I would imagine the challenges are more significant in terms of adapting to living as an immigrant rather than an emigrant.
The guys I work are mostly speaking English as a second language. It doesn't seem to hold them back (as far as I can tell). I'm just impressed they can do same job as me but in a second language. Hrm on second thoughts maybe that means they are held back! Maybe they'd be working at a faang aotherwise!
Not being a native speaker sure feels like a major disadvantage. Attempting to articulate your thoughts in a foreign language takes substantially more effort, which could have been spent doing actual work instead.
Picture trying to do some fine work while wearing thick gloves. You are not going to perform at your maximum capacity.
> Not being a native speaker sure feels like a major disadvantage. Attempting to articulate your thoughts in a foreign language takes substantially more effort, which could have been spent doing actual work instead.
Does it? I just switch thinking to another language, it's not a big deal (as long as you have reasonable fluency). I thought it was reasonably common (all the people I spoke with about it seem to do the same)
When I'm reading HN I think in English, when I talk with my team I think in English, when I talk with my girlfriend or go grocery shopping I think in my native language. It's difficult to use both languages at the same time, but it's rarely the case (e.g. I might continue speaking English and not notice when I started a conversation in a multinational group but then I talk to someone I can speak a more suited common language with) . In terms of work I do, I think I'd struggle with my native language more, as there is no equivalent terminology and I'd have to use English anyway.
Not really: you emigrate from, and immigrate to. I meant immigration, not emmigration, because regretting it or not depends on where you landed as well as where you left.
I don't - yet - but I can see why it may not be worth it. In short its just not that big of an improvement to justify the cons. But that's just my impression; I'm interested in hearing others.
In my twenties I was young and hungry. It felt like an adventure, a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to work on projects that didn't exist back home. It was also a way to achieve independence and prove to myself that I had what it took to succeed alone and compete with what I perceived to be better educated engineers.
In my thirties I started to notice how I had become estranged from friends and family. My parents began to look old at first, and eventually weak and frail. Those fears turned true when I lost my dad in my late thirties. I've heard other people talk about the shock of seeing your parent age in discrete increments every time they travel back home, so I know I am not alone in this.
Now in my forties I finally have some free time to look back and wonder whether it was worth it. From this vantage point, a simpler life close to friends and family looks pleasant, but at the same time I figure that if I had stayed then I would have always wondered what it would have been like if I had moved overseas.
So, it's complex. These days I'm thinking of possibly going back to Spain. It has better weather and food, if nothing else.