Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login

> My high school bio teacher confidently claimed that the appendix was a "useless organ".

So does the Encyclopedia Brittanica, Healthline, and any number of other sources:

> appendix, formally vermiform appendix, in anatomy, a vestigial hollow tube




They are wrong.

> The appendix has been identified as an important component of mammalian mucosal immune function, particularly B cell-mediated immune responses and extrathymically derived T cells.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appendix_(anatomy)#Functions


Do we have data on COVID in people without appendix?


If the appendix truly serves no function and isn't developmentally required, then selection pressures would tend to remove it.

It likely has some complex purpose, such as a reservoir for microbiome.


This is a widely held misconception. Mammalian genomes contain about 50% of their DNA as repeated sequences, and although there are people who can imagine uses for those sequences, there is no evidence that they are required or even evolutionarily advantageous.

The idea that modern higher organisms have been "optimized" so that every part is essential is not well supported by evidence, and there are many examples of features that simply are historical artifacts or "not-sufficiently harmful". Many evolutionary biologists are comfortable with neutral theories consistent with the idea that large portions of the genome are not under strong (or perhaps even moderate) selection.


> This is a widely held misconception. Mammalian genomes contain about 50% of their DNA as repeated sequences, and although there are people who can imagine uses for those sequences, there is no evidence that they are required or even evolutionarily advantageous.

If you remove noncoding "junk DNA", you alter the higher level spatial configuration of DNA. Histone winding changes which promoter regions are accessible, gene dosing is altered, binding affinity and kinetics change, etc. These are dynamical equations you're dramatically altering.

Non-coding DNA also likely shields against several classes of random point mutations, base substitutions, transposition, etc. preventing cancer and cell physiological disease states.

It's also important for maintaining alignment during crossover.

If it truly served no purpose, it would be gone.

> The idea that modern higher organisms have been "optimized" so that every part is essential

Essential is the wrong word here. Relying on every part for survival would put us at risk. We have plenty of built in redundancies to support degradation, failure, and loss of multiple systems and functions.

I get your argument, but I still disagree. At the species / population level, we have been optimized as wholesale organisms as best as development and body plans will allow. Everything not subject to pressure will get washed away.

Despite our vestigial tails, the coccyx supports our weight while we are seated. As I postulated before, the appendix probably has a net positive function in supporting gut microflora and our "junk DNA" plays a role at the molecular level.


The statement that at some level species have been optimized is a religious belief, not a scientific one. Species are at the end of an evolutionary history that ended in the present. There is no reason to believe that that endpoint is optimal in any sense. It is certainly not globally optimal, and absent very strong selection, it may not even be locally optimal. Evolution explores an infinitesimal fraction of the possible states/pathways available. Without more thorough exploration and strong selection, there is no reason to believe things are optimal.

I think I’m not going out on a limb to say that no modern evolutionary biologist believes organisms are optimal. They simply survived.


> If it truly served no purpose, it would be gone.

Why? Removing it serves no purpose either.


biological version of dead code with no time allocated in the roadmap for cleanup and refactoring?


Only vaguely. If the DNA was to be compared with our programming languages, it would be like INTERCAL, but a million times worse.

Sections of the genome interact not only with the code right around them, but also with code far away, as a result of the chromosomal folding. So a section of 100 nucleotides might not do anything if you splice it out and throw various enzymes and other chemicals at it, and it might not even matter that much which nucleotides they are, but if you remove them and change the shape of the chromosome, it might not work the same way.

A lot of our knowledge of genetic is limited to the things that are easy to test.


Except our machines are designed around the idea of isolating components and minimizing unintended side effects, while biology has no such compulsion.

Imagine if an extra semicolon in one of your unused files shifted electrical distribution on storage media and that had all kinds of downstream effects on unrelated systems and those effects were critical for multiple other functions.

Only increase complexity enough so the whole contraption is NOT brittle.


You’re talking about messiness in the genotype, but selection pressure happens to the phenotype. The latter I think controls more of what ends up in the former.

Which is what we see all the time in programming: software wins because of its effect, not usually the lines of code needed (or not) to get there.


I'm not sure I understand your argument, but if large portions of the genome have no effect on phenotype, then perhaps we can both agree that those regions would not be under selection. Pressure on the phenotype cannot directly alter the genotype (no Lamarkism), but it could select for or against the fraction of the population with a particular genotype. But only if the genotype produces a phenotype.


Wouldn't assuming a one-copy rule end state is natural cause immense issues with recessive genetic disorders (which could in turn select against it), and also make chromosomal-crossover produce sterilized but viable young at a much higher rate?


> selection pressures would tend to remove it.

A person born without an appendix has no actual advantage over a person who has one, so selection doesn't really influence it.

The human body is full of things that truly serve no function, and it's also full of detrimental things, such as genetic diseases.

As long as it does not impact reproduction, selection has no impact.


> A person born without an appendix has no actual advantage over a person who has one

Untreated appendicitis is quite deadly. I would say there is definitely some advantage.


Unless it is widespread deadly before breeding age, it doesn't make much difference.

See: dementia, cancer.


Natural selection only pushes towards the removal of things that harm reproduction, not things that harm survival at all ages. If appendicitis mostly happens after the average age of reproduction, then there's not really a big evolutionary pressure to remove the appendix. Sure the person will die of appendicitis, but if at that point they've already had all the kids they're likely to have during their life, then the appendicitis doesn't have an effect on the process of natural selection.


That's true, but untreated cardiomyopathy is potentially deadly too, yet that isn't enough pressure to cause us to not have hearts...


Good idea but bad example. Something needs to fulfill a heart's role, but we can live without an appendix just fine.


Oh sure, it was reductio ad absurdum, just pointing out that the possibility of appendicitis wasn't by itself an argument against its continued existence - I don't know anyone personally who has ever been diagnosed with it...


> just pointing out that the possibility of appendicitis wasn't by itself an argument against its continued existence

Except that yes it is an argument against it.

Your reduction breaks down because it conflates "a reason" with "all reasons".


Can’t an inherited trait be “neutral”? By that I mean it confers neither a benefit nor a detriment? It’s my understanding that the baby toe, for example, isn’t particularly useful anymore. But having or not having the baby toe(s) isn’t likely to help or hinder a person’s ability to reach adulthood and reproduce. There must be a lot of traits like that, right? Like eye color or maybe wisdom teeth. No one (as far as I know) is selecting a sex partner based on whether their wisdom teeth were impacted or not.


That's only if the gene's to express an appendix ever go away.

I always think back to Richard Dawkins explaining how a particular vein in a Giraffe's neck is wrapped around a lower neck bone and has grown 2x to accommodate the long neck instead of regrowing in a more efficient way (not wrapping).


I believe you're talking about the laryngeal nerve!

And I don't think it's just giraffes, it's all mammals, which also points to a common ancestor.


The recurrent laryngeal nerve is actually common to all tetrapods, not just mammals. Birds have it, probably dinosaurs had it.

https://bioone.org/journals/acta-palaeontologica-polonica/vo...


Nature’s billion dollar mistake?


Others have said this using different words, but evolution relies on the preservation of low-cost mutations. It took many mutations to get from photoreceptors to the mammalian eyeball.

If the cost is small enough that other factors dominate your ability to procreate, it will spread to all of your descendants. If other genes in your genome make you reproductively successful, that gene edit will spread and spread.

It’s a good thing these cheap changes are preserved, or viruses and bacteria would have wiped out all multicellular life early on by practicing patience. We all have genes that make us less susceptible to some pathogens than others and if a bad enough variant comes around, suddenly we are over represented in the next generation. If the hits keep coming eventually our family reunion may be the only one being held.


This is a common misunderstanding.

The same logic would apply to male nipples. It's a flawed logic.


Nipples are used by female mammals for feeding their young, so this logic does not apply to nipples.


It certainly does apply: why do men have nipples? Likely for reasons similar to why we have an appendix.

Fundamentally, natural selection and evolution are models that help explain general biological processes, to help us comprehend a bigger picture. Around the edges of that picture, it's not fully clear.

The truth is that the universe is governed by laws that are deeply unintuitive: general relativity and the standard model. Each layer of abstraction on these makes the periphery of the image fuzzier, but allows us to make more sense of the part of the image that we're focusing in on.


Genes to turn off development of the nipples would cost more. The same body plan is used until sex hormones cause sex characteristics to develop.

Many females also find male nipples attractive.


The appendix is used to reboot the intestinal biome in case of a catastrophic event.

It's pretty much an on-site backup for intestinal flora :)


That's not how selection works. If something doesn't decrease survivability, then there is no reason why evolution would get rid of it.


This is a profound misunderstanding of the driving forces of evolution.

Why do we have wisdom teeth? Just because something is useless doesn’t mean it’s eliminated


You yourself gave the answer. “Tend to” means it is likely, not that it will always happen.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: