From all the history I have read of civilisation, it's been grain that has been the foundation of human society as we know it, meat couldn't get us anywhere.
Meat eating among the poor in European societies and derived societies is a new phenomenon at least in the idea that every meal has meat in it.
Take a look outside of Europe or even within less wealthy areas of Europe and their diets are magnitudes lower in their meat consumption.
I've read the opposite re: inflammatory side effects of meat that we are discovering. WHO a few years ago put eating sulfite infested meat as being carcinogenic.
Do you have any good sources on the bioavailability of meat vs. plant nutrients? I've tried giving up meat before and have found that I feel noticeably worse both physically and mentally when I don't eat it, even if I eat a lot of plant protein and take supplements.
I don't know if this simply due to my own unique biochemistry or what, but it's not subtle. I have a fast metabolism, so that may have something to do with it? I know plenty of vegans and vegetarians who say they feel better after giving up meat, so I've always figured it depends on the person.
> Do you have any good sources on the bioavailability of meat vs. plant nutrients? I've tried giving up meat before and have found that I feel noticeably worse both physically and mentally when I don't eat it, even if I eat a lot of plant protein and take supplements.
> I don't know if this simply due to my own unique biochemistry or what, but it's not subtle. I have a fast metabolism, so that may have something to do with it?
For better or worse, it's very easy to end up eating a caloric deficit on a plant-based diet. I'm very glad I use a kitchen scale and small script I wrote to calculate how much kcal/protein/carbs/fat I'm actually getting in comparison to what I should be getting. To put it mildly, plant-based diets take some getting used to.
Protein is important, but beyond 1.4-1.6 grams of protein per kg body weight, your body increasingly relieves itself of any excess. Particularly if you stick to eating low-fat legumes, grains and greens per Esselstyn [1], getting enough protein isn't a concern. In fact, I have to consciously choose low protein foods like potatoes and rice just to ensure I don't get too much protein.
I have to be honest I had the same experience (which is unfortunate).
I went vegetarian and borderline vegan for 2 years and I wound up feeling depressed and run down.
It could’ve been from other things too, it’s only anecdotal.
I started introducing some chicken and fish into my diet again and I felt better.
I now eat meat again, just conscious of how much I’m eating and try eat a bit less.
One thing I noticed is that with being a vegetarian, I found to eat properly is harder. I had to cook a lot more to find the protein and calories, it seems to be something which I could probably do correctly if I had more time for it.
Balanced diet is the way to go I think.
One of the things I hate about eating meat is the copious amounts of plastic it comes in. With fruit and vegetables I don’t need too worry as much as I don’t put it in plastic bags, it’s a shame that meat is sold in disposable plastic.
You were all probably low on iron, among other things.* B12, Calcium, Omega-3's, and a handful of trace elements are also on that list. Most of those can be solved by supplementation, but iron's more tricky. Likely why life evolved carnivorous tendencies in the first place - the iron is safely tucked away in a readily-absorbed heme complex.
Iron's one of those things your body doesn't absorb easily through supplements, and competes with Calcium absorption (So, no taking it in multivitamins or consuming dairy at the same time you take it, otherwise it will inhibit absorption). It will also chelate with tannins (which are in teas, coffee, wine, and chocolate), which also inhibits absorption. And, for more fun, if you over-do it on the iron, it will horribly poison you, so, uh, basically check with a doctor re: supplements. That said, if you're good about balancing out the protein, iron, b12, calcium, and omega-3's (among others), you'll feel a lot less crappy in transitioning over to a plant-based diet.
*In my semi-scientific, zero-medical-training, not-a-doctor opinion
I'm not a vegan of any sort, but one day I realized that I hadn't eaten meat for really long time and I didn't really want to anymore. That must have something to do with fruits: there's definitely some almost material "energy" in them and eating sandwiches with meat feels like chewing paper sometimes. 10 years ago my diet was almost entirely meat.
"Well-planned vegan diets are regarded as appropriate for all stages of life, including infancy and pregnancy, by the American Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics,[f] Dietitians of Canada,[23] the Australian National Health and Medical Research Council,[24] New Zealand Ministry of Health,[25] Harvard Medical School,[26] and the British Dietetic Association.[27]"
There's lots of examples of sports people, academics, musicians etc. who are on plant based diets too to prove the point:
> The unfortunate reality is that mankind as we know it, probably developed to the level it did, in part due to the consumption of meat.
Hedging language aside — i.e. "humans evolved because X to some extent" — I recently had an epiphany touring the north island of New Zealand by minibus. Productivity utterly collapses when you have to frequently move from one (temporary) settlement to another. What you eat isn't nearly as impactful as the degree to which you can be stationary.
Interestingly, primitive hunter-gatherer societies could rely upon wild game or fish for caloric intake, which was conducive to a nomadic life. There's no need for an agricultural revolution if you're OK with killing wild animals to harvest their flesh for food. But to call this instrumental in human development is I think wrong. Meat is without question the most primitive way to feed: meat consumption does not require any amount of long-term settlement nor does it require much intelligence: carnivorous animals low in general intelligence regularly kill each other in the wild for food.
Meat consumption is fundamentally a primitive adaptation. Factory farmed meat consumption is a relatively modern phenomenon driven first and foremost by human habituation to the taste of flesh. Plants can provide every nutrient required for human survival save for vitamin B12.
> Meat is absolutely PACKED with bioavailable nutrients in a way that most plant products simply aren't.
Such as? Meat is a euphemism for slabs of fat and muscle tissue containing amino acids. With the exception of wild-caught fatty fish like salmon — factory farmed fatty fish contain greatly reduced levels of omega-3s — the fat is of questionable healthiness compared to vegetable sources. And if you're convinced it's necessary to consume the muscle tissue of formerly living creatures for amino acids, you'd eat insects for environmental sustainability's sake. In fact, insect exoskeletons are a rich source of dietary calcium directly comparable to dairy. The fact most of you reading this wouldn't dream of eating insects, goes to show nutritional value is not why you're eating meat. Taste is #1.
> Add to that, the growing evidence that much of the plant material we're eating may have inflammatory side effects of consumption.
Citation needed.
> The point I am making is that a solution isn't a solution if it means getting rid of one of the most dense forms of nutrition we have.
Where do high-fat nuts and seeds fit in your view of "dense forms of nutrition"? E.g. gram for gram, you're getting much more calories from nuts and seeds than you're getting from low-fat muscle tissue such as chicken.
What a ridiculous hot take. We buy meat to have a varied and healthy diet, and yes we like our food to taste good - as is that is something to be ashamed of?
We don’t buy insects because last time I checked, supermarkets don’t sell them. Maybe you could look into why time and time again, insect food startups fail.
I'm not here to be your enemy, so please don't make me out to be one. I wasn't raised vegetarian by any means, and I know fully well meat tastes amazingly good, and that having a varied diet is important. But heart disease, diabetes and many types of cancers are worryingly linked with the consumption of meat, dairy and eggs. As the documentary Forks Over Knives [1] makes abundantly clear, a whole foods plant-based diet is in every way a life extension technology.
> Is that something to be ashamed of?
Wanting to feel satiated is nothing to be ashamed of. What is arguably shameful, however, is how the bacon gets made [2].
But heart disease, diabetes and many types of cancers are diseases that you will get, regardless of diet or lifestyle, if nothing else kills you first.
This part is more of a reply to people claiming meat is the natural thing to eat so it must be healthy, it's what we've eaten for centuries, you can't be healthy without eating meat etc.
Nobody is arguing that taste isn't important but are your current taste preferences more important than climate change and animal suffering?
Nobody is arguing that taste isn't important but are your current taste preferences more important than climate change
No, but synthmeat will largely take care of that aspect of the problem. Not as soon as we'd like, but we'll get there.
and animal suffering?
To the extent animals are suffering, I'd encourage you to get involved legislatively. Contact your representatives, and support organizations that work for change (ethically, which excludes PETA). Animal abuse is unnecessary and unlike climate change, it can be stopped, right now, if people speak up.
“Plants can provide every nutrient required for human survival save for vitamin B12.”
Which is what’s interesting to me, you basically cannot actually be vegan without supplements. Maybe this is where we should go as a specifies for ethical reasons.
But it’s a mental leap to rely on supplements for vital nutrients.
All of the B12 consumed anywhere in the world -- and all animals need it -- comes exclusively from bacteria. The bacteria in your colon produce thousands of times as much as you need, but you do not absorb so much as a nanogram of it. (Dogs and rabbits eat their own crap to get it.)
The process for absorbing B12, in the upper intestine, is the most intricate of any vitamin, starting with saliva. Apparently the huge variety of almost-B12 variants have to be filtered out, so as not to gum up the works.
It is common for Americans (and maybe others?) over 50 to develop an autoimmune reaction to some part of the process, and lose most ability to absorb B12. (You may notice shooting pains in your arms if you get this.) Then you need to take 5mg daily supplements. The micrograms in meat and dairy are then not enough.
So, if you think you are eating meat for the B12, surprise! that is not where it comes from. Homo erectus probably got enough from the dirt on everything, and grubs.
> Homo erectus probably got enough from the dirt on everything, and grubs
And now they are extinct. It seems that the plan didn't worked very well.
The faster way to ingest lots and lots of bacteria so you don't die is a simple one: Carrion. Our ancestors ate as much as they could find. The other monkeys are dead (and our plant eaters relatives are almost extinct).
You are descended from Homo Erectus. They survived for many times longer than H. sap has, and it is far from clear that we will outlast them, in the end.
Eat carrion if you like. I will send flowers to your grave.
I don't need to, animals have plenty of vitamin B12, but I could do if necessary of course, because my species is omnivore. Better than ignoring my real nature and being forced to eat dirt or my own crap to fix my diet.
> I will send flowers to your grave.
Can't fall to mention that is a nice detail. Will be appreciated.
B12 usually comes from bacteria in soil (and not meat directly) that we don't get now because of cleaner vegetables and cleaner water. Likewise, many industrial animals kept indoors won't get as much B12, so that's why they're given B12 supplements. If you avoid meat, you can just take B12 supplements directly instead of them being filtered through an animal first. If you think this sounds "unnatural", there's nothing natural about intensive animal farming which is where most people get their meat from.
We used to get B12 from bacteria in the soil, but these days we clean our food immaculately, and we're also ruining our soil. My understanding is that B12 deficiency is a potential problem for everyone; vegan diets are just under more scrutiny. Also, the whole notion of "supplements" is not very useful; it's all just food. I don't know how B12 is produced, but if they're growing it by culturing the same bacteria we used to get B12 from, we have only industrialized the same symbiotic relationship we already had with certain microbes.
My B12 supplement is derived from plant sources, which I find far preferable to secondary B12 consumption from injected grain-fed animal tissue which is the modern status quo.
Meat is absolutely PACKED with bioavailable nutrients in a way that most plant products simply aren't.
Add to that, the growing evidence that much of the plant material we're eating may have inflammatory side effects of consumption.
The point I am making is that a solution isn't a solution if it means getting rid of one of the most dense forms of nutrition we have.