I visited Cuba a year ago for a couple days on a cruise. I had a nice time, some great people, some great venues (REALLY great venues)... but won't be going back, and it's due to systematic deficiencies (trivial examples: garbage EVERYWHERE, many toilets have to ration toiled paper (!), not to mention, no incentive to clean the bathrooms, many restaurants had bland flavors due to the inability to order specialty food items and spices and only work with the bulk items the government gives you).
Also it's frankly weird how the last capitalist era there is basically enshrined in their culture (from the cars, to the fairly-well-preserved buildings dating from that era)
Odd observational note on the people: Many are into what I'd call cults but what most would call run-of-the-mill superstitious beliefs (voodoo, etc.)
I think I'm allowed to have a very negative opinion of unfounded belief systems, given the damage they've done the past 3000 years up to and including the present U.S. "fakenews is whatever I don't believe is true" administration
Your complaints sound like they're coming from someone who went on a cruise to almost any third world island - though maybe other destinations are better controlled by the cruise companies to take you to specific (clean) tourist ports.
Cuba is not without its problems, but much of what you describe is not unique to a third world country.
The one area you're just completely wrong about is the flavors. I was only able to stay for 10 days, but on my short trip there I stayed in locals' houses (which is quite common there - google "casas particulares") and the vast majority of the meals we had - especially the ones cooked by the people we stayed with - were extremely flavorful.
I'm not claiming socialism is great or anything - there was a potato shortage while I was there - but I'd just hope no one reads your post and thinks Cubans are eating terrible bland food...
>Cuba is not without its problems, but much of what you describe is not unique to a third world country.
>I'm not claiming socialism is great or anything - there was a potato shortage while I was there
But the point is that the countries that were third world a half century ago but have since raised themselves up to developed status did so through free market economics, while the socialist dictatorship countries like Cuba failed.
Apparently, the methods used for planning economies known until ~1990, executed with the computers and communication systems of the time, in countries that were relatively poor to begin with, ruled as dictatorships, did not work well enough while the USA and its allies actively fought "communism". That tells us nothing.
Guess which country is the richest in the Caribbean? Okay, it's the USA. It may hardly be a democracy anymore, it doesn't particularly respect human rights, but it hasn't regressed to developing status yet and it has free market economics up the wazoo. The richest independent country (as in, its mainland is in the Caribbean) is of course Cuba.
Only if you believe in the Cuban government’s numbers. Do you really believe that a country whose population lives on rations and $30/month salaries is a rich one?
If the discussion isn't proceeding in a thoughtful, constructive fashion then don't proceed. Downvotes are fine—flags if a comment or submission breaks the guidelines.
Hi sctb, I’m given to understand that you’re one of the moderators here. I’ve tried to contact you twice in two weeks through email without a response, so I’m concerned that it’s hitting your spam folder. Is there a better way to contact you? I don’t feel good about inserting my comment in an unrelated post like this, but I’m unsure what else to do.
> What it always comes to is liberals being ignorant.
The ad-hominem also always follows.
> beat many market economies
You call me ignorant and follow with this? Whichmarket economy is Cuba beating specifically? I’ve asked many times and you failed to name one country.
Yet you persist with the notion that a country whose population lives on rations; who has no freedom, be it political, of speech, of the press, or even the freedom to leave their country; whose main city is a crumbling town; who has no access to quality medicine (yes, despite the memes you hear from its apologists)... I could go on... you think this country is beating anyone?
Do you think an economy who survives on aid from other totalitarian states such as Venezuela or in corruption money from political friends from other countries like Brazil is beating anyone?
> You probably think that Somalia doesn't have a free market, because if something doesn't work, it's not a free market.
Your mind-reading abilities are terrible. You never stopped moving the goalposts in this conversation, and now you’re trying to frame me as an anarchist?
“Totalitarianism is a political concept of a mode of government that prohibits opposition parties, restricts individual opposition to the state and its claims, and exercises an extremely high degree of control over public and private life. It is regarded as the most extreme and complete form of authoritarianism.”
It depended on the restaurant. I got the feeling that some restaurants somehow had access to special flavorful ingredients, and some did not. I would not be surprised if this was simply the corrupt side of life in a communist-run institution.
We have a favorite Cuban place in the States (shout-out to Corazón de Cuba in Long Beach, Long Island) and the owner said that he is able to make much more flavorful food in the states than he was in Cuba proper
> Also it's frankly weird how the last capitalist era there is basically enshrined in their culture
No, I think your first list perfectly enshrines the effects of modern day capitalism on modern day Cuba...
> garbage EVERYWHERE, many toilets have to ration toiled paper (!), not to mention, no incentive to clean the bathrooms, many restaurants had bland flavors due to the inability to order specialty food items and spices and only work with the bulk items the government gives you
I spent about 10 days in Cuba as part of a scientific research trip just before Obama eased the restrictions. What disturbed me the most was how many Cuban scientists I met who truly believed the Cubans would cure cancer for the entire world if it weren't for the American "blockade."
Aside from the government propaganda, a lot of South American & Caribbean countries have the same issues you've outlined. (Though the lack of toilet seats has so far been pretty unique to Cuba in my travels most of the poorer countries are definitely BYOTP.)
One thing that really stood out to me about Cuba when I went was their odd transition to "private property" which this new constitution vaguely addresses. When I was there (in 2014 or 2015?) Cubans were allowed to "own" real estate but the government could force them to "sell" the property at any time, at the price specified by the government, and only to the seller selected or approved by the government. It didn't seem that "ownership" came with many rights or benefits.
As for the "voodoo" I think that's fairly common in the Caribbean/South America as well. There are "voodoo markets" in Haiti & Togo, for example. And the "witches market" in La Paz, Bolivia is... something if you're into being surrounded by dried llama fetuses.[1]
> What disturbed me the most was how many Cuban scientists I met who truly believed the Cubans would cure cancer for the entire world if it weren't for the American "blockade."
But don't these scientists know that they are way to lazy to cure cancer anyway because in socialism, people have no motivation to work?
> When I was there (in 2014 or 2015?) Cubans were allowed to "own" real estate but the government could force them to "sell" the property at any time, at the price specified by the government, and only to the seller selected or approved by the government.
Cubans aren't lazy. By a long shot. I found them to be some of the most innovative and indeed they have quite the "hacker" culture given the very limited resources available to them.
And you're right, I didn't explain the property rights clearly. I commented in a rush and that was a mistake.
> Cubans were allowed to "own" real estate but the government could force them to "sell" the property at any time, at the price specified by the government, and only to the seller selected or approved by the government
What I meant by this (but did not clearly articulate) was that "homeowners" can not only be forced by the government to sell at any time (similar to eminent domain) but also need permission from the government if they want to sell. And even when they've been given permission to sell they don't list it on the open market or even have an assessment (as would happen with an eminent domain action). Instead, the government simply assigns a price to the property and then assigns a potential "buyer" for the predetermined price. If that "buyer" isn't interested, the government will assign another. I'm sure you can see how this system can easily be exploited by government administrators to obtain the most desirable property for themselves and their "friends" at an artificially low price.
And yes, I seriously linked to the Daily Mail. It certainly isn't always the best source of information but I was intending to share the photos and that link had the most variety. As I've been to the witches market, I found both the photos, and the information in the article, to be accurate and added to the conversation.
Your snarky attitude, on the other hand, adds little to HN. A quick look through your comment history makes me wonder whether you might benefit from a review of the Guidelines.
What's so odd about Voodoo being popular in Cuba is that Communism, the philosophy of the government, is militantly atheist (as Marx said, "religion is the opiate of the people.")
I think the "recognition of" only refers to the immediately following "private property", not the whole list in that sentence. I've often thought natural languages could benefit from a grouping operator :)
> There are references to {markets and {recognition of private property}, foreign investment, small businesses, gender identity, the internet, {the right to legal representation upon arrest} and habeas corpus}.
Seems like the people were offered a mixed bag: Have some direly needed reforms now in exchange for cementing the power of the party, which was already solid to begin with.
Honestly, let us just keep Cuba a toy socialist country as it is and not boycott it. Otherwise, where would we point to when we want to show real world socialism? Assuming that Maduro is on his way out, of course.
Well, the government-controlled media pushed pretty hard for a "yes" vote. That's unfair, but it's less than vote fraud.
The examples in the article sound like the vote count was reasonably accurate. (When someone against attends the vote count at their precinct, and says that it was 400 for, 25 against, and the official total says 86.85% for, that's probably an un-finagled tally - unless the ballots were stuffed before the count.)
"Dissidents, who were divided between those who advocated a ‘no’ vote and those who called for abstention so as not to legitimize a process they deemed a fraud, reported a few incidents across the country of members being temporarily detained or harassed."
Yes, I saw that. Presuming that it was "a few", I assumed that it hadn't affected the vote much.
I mean, it still shouldn't happen at all. But you could detain a million people and it wouldn't be the cause of an 85% yes vote among 8 million people.
Closed governments can more easily manufacture consent than open ones. In open societies, it costs a lot more, but the victims gladly pay for it. But manufactured is manufactured, either way.
You haven't lived under a closed government, and it shows. Here's what happens in Russia (a far more "open" government, because it only controls like 90% of their press and not 100%) during elections. Citizens "can and do" monitor vote counting. The very same citizens (mostly government employees such as local administration officials, schoolteachers, municipal employees, etc) also engage in ballot stuffing, count rigging, and multiple voting, to the point where the vote percentages rounded up for the officially sanctioned candidates show up as prominent spikes on vote count distribution. I.e. if there's an "understanding" that the "right" candidate should get 80% of the vote, they round it up to pretty much exactly 80% by subtracting votes from other candidates. And if that doesn't work, the government controls the very electronic system ("GAS Vybory") which computes the final tally.
You can even see evidence of all of the above on Youtube, but nobody gives a shit, because nobody believes anything can be changed. Heck, most people don't believe anything _should_ be changed, because aside from the brief period in the 90s (of which the US "cured" Russia by directly and openly helping Yeltsin secure a win in a runoff election), that's the way it's always been there.
Heck, with the recent ballot-related shenanigans in Broward County FL and elsewhere, I'm not sure everything is 100% sanitary with this stuff in the US either anymore.
And in case the downvote brigade thinks I'm making this up:
I can 100% guarantee that in any such elections all of the aforementioned "irregularities" happen on a massive scale. If you believe that an autocratic government is going to yield power peacefully, you're beyond naive.
