I used to be super gung-ho about Tesla. I've preordered the X and the 3. Never pulled the trigger on the X, and probably gonna give back my 3 reservation too.

I love the way the car drives. The driver experience is amazing, with the way it just goes where you want and autopilot just driving it on the freeway for me. If it was just me, I would get one.

But the interiors are awful. They let me test drive an X for a day, trying to convince to act on my reservation. Right after that test drive, instead of the X, we got a Honda Odyssey.

Sure it uses gas, but my family is way more comfortable in the van, and I saved $100,000. After driving the X, my first thought was, this car costs $140,000, but it feels like $30,000 on the inside. The seats were barely adjustable. There was nothing for the kids, no climate controls in the back for my wife. The back row was tight and uncomfortable for my mother in law.

I hope one day Tesla does an all electric van. But I suspect I'll get that from Honda or Toyota before they ever get around to it.

I highly suggest sitting in a Model 3 before giving up your reservation. My expectations were not high from the pictures, but we took delivery 2 weeks ago and it is a phenomenal car and the interior is gorgeous. It reminds me of a mid-century modern piece of furniture.

I'm coming from a Model S, have done a couple of week-long test drives of the X, and the Model 3 interior is IMO far superior. I think they'll need to update the S/X interior to align more with the styling with the 3 because they look dated in comparison.

Also the seats are a lot more comfortable in the Model 3 than the ones in our S. Though I never thought the S seats were particularly uncomfortable.

Yeah I won't give up on the 3 until I actually get to sit in one and drive one. Both of my wife's brothers pre-ordered too, so I'll probably get a chance to hear about a lot of first hand experience.

Thank you though for the details, it does help to hear that the pictures aren't doing it justice.

How are the rear seats? Saw the S and X in a car show. Got in the rear of the S, holy crap, because of the battery underneath, as an adult you're basically squatting when you sit in the back (this guy is only partially sitting: https://youtu.be/XGjlSOGgDXI?t=28).

Edit: looking at some other car reviews, it seems it's a normal way to sit in the back, but in the Model S I felt like my knees were bent so much more.

I think you'll get the same feeling in the 3. But all indications are way more knee/head room than you'd expect. Not sure which one I'd rather have, but I also never sit in the back up my own car, and my kids are still in car seats.

I haven’t spent too much time back there since I have two little ones (in car seats) back there.

But I did sit back there when we first got it and was really surprised at how much head room there was. I think the extra head space might be due to the glass roof.

The low floor gives the opportunity to have more headroom in the back. Yes, if you're used to sitting in front seats, it's lower than you're used to.

"But the interiors are awful."

This cannot be overstated. The interiors are indeed awful.

The interior of a maxed out Model S approaches the fit, finish, materials and features of the low end germans (A4, 3Series, Cclass) from below.

In fact, while I find it hard to believe, it appears that many Model S drivers are driving their very first expensive car. Forum comments/postings make it very clear that they are not comparing these cars to others in their price category (A8, etc.)

I don't find that hard to believe, personally. I buy Hondas (well, Honda as mine has run for quite a while and I've been happy with it). The only expensive car I would currently consider would be a Model S if I felt that I could afford it without causing any issues. I have zero interest in another similarly priced car. Now, if Honda or others were to introduce electric cars with substantial promise in reliability, driving distance, look? I may even strike Tesla from the list of automobiles I would have interest in.

So there are probably quite a few people who moved up in income at around the time the Model S became a highly rated car and that is what you're seeing.

Yeah, I'm that kind of Tesla buyer. I don't give a shit about fit, finish, and materials of the interior. I wouldn't know good fit, finish, or materials if they bit me on the ass.

Model X is not a 140,000 car. It starts much lower. You can similarly option up a 5 series to 100k. In any case, I prefer my Model S interiors 10x more than my X5 or Hyundai Santa Fe. Both of them have a 1000 buttons on the front dash with random functions which are hard to figure out. And let’s not get started about the iDrive or whatever it is in Hyundai. I love the clean minimalist interiors of Model S. Model 3 interior looks even better

A fully loaded X is $151,000 + taxes and license. My fully loaded Odyssey was $48,000 including all fees.

I've been in other $151,000+ cars before, and the X isn't anywhere close to that.

If you don't care about performance and you don't care about having an electric car, why are you considering a Tesla?

I care a lot about both of those things. But I care more about the comfort of my passengers. I had hoped that the X had both the performance and the comfort, but it failed so badly on the comfort that I had to forsake performance to get the comfort.

Everyone differs here, but I think the X is actually pretty ugly at the front. The hood and grille just seem like a fussy child's face.

I still love the look of the S, and think it's aging pretty well, but I couldn't bring myself to get the X in part because of the exterior design. I ended up with a 2018 XC60.

The T8?

It wasn't available when I ordered. I had a time constraint, so got the first one off the boat into North America (allegedly), so it has a T6. But all things being equal, I'd love a T8 in there.

On a mid-range or long-range trip with the family I don't really care about the exterior unless we're talking Aztek level ugly. Minivans are super useful and they've been focusing on family oriented interiors for a long time. I can take the seats out and haul a ton of stuff back there too. They also beat SUVs for the utility aspect in most situations.

Why care about the exterior? You don't see it when you're driving.

To be fair, the older Odysseys were really damn ugly. Newer ones are slightly better, but not amazing.

Of course, interior wins over exterior every time, but I do admit to some confusion as to why anyone bought the old ones.

I didn't even think about the exterior when I bought it. It's for my family, so all I worried about were features that will make my family comfortable while giving me a good driving experience.

I suspect that's why all those old vans were bought too -- you don't get a van for its styling. :)

That's true, you certainly don't. Honestly, it's true of any car - if something looked like a PT Cruiser (to pick a stereotype) but did what I wanted far better than anything else, I probably would have gotten despite the exterior. Though that is absurdly hard to imagine, so it's hard to be sure what would happen.

In any case, I think exterior certainly comes into play at a subconscious level after looking at a bunch of different models for a month... and if two vehicles are otherwise very similar, I might opt for a slightly nicer exterior over, say, 3-level vs 2-level heated seats, or rain-sensing wipers. (On that note, I've never found a rain-sensing wiper system that I liked...)

For context, though, I'm in Vancouver, and as a city we're rather snobby about car appearances.

> I've never found a rain-sensing wiper system that I liked...

Me neither, they're always too aggressive. I end up doing by hand, which would be super hard on Model 3 from what I hear.

> For context, though, I'm in Vancouver, and as a city we're rather snobby about car appearances.

I grew up in Southern California. I doubt you will find a place more snobby about their cars. :)

Right, and Teslas are the best cars on the market today for auto-steer and adaptive cruise control, which contributes significantly to driving experience. As for family comfort, the Tesla seats are pretty good, and I don't really want any other comfort features than a good seat or two, and a cup-holder. Most everything else I want for family comfort/entertainment is delivered better via tablet or phone.

99% of buyers care about a cars exterior. Otherwise the Pontiac Aztek would be a bestseller...

That would only be true if the Aztek were a stellar car other than its look. But it isn't.

With Tesla's there's something weird about the line where the hood meets the windshield that you don't see in other sports cars

That may be the deep cut under there that the wiper lie in. It's for maximum aerodynamics.

So is this where the founders all get to come in and contemplate, compare, and contrast their expensive luxury toys? And then move on to another thread on HN and wax philosophical about economic inequality?

HN is now (fortunately? unfortunately?) large enough that multiple groups of people with different consumer identities coexist under the same forum. I'd guess that startup founders are a minority by user count.

As a founder of a startup, I don't own a Tesla (nor do I wax philosophical about economic inequality often), but there are plenty of articles and comment threads that I find valuable. It's also healthy to keep abreast of a broad understanding of what people find interesting. It just so happens that Teslas are at an intersection of featureset and price that interests a lot of people here and I find that valuable for HN content.

Also, a model 3 is something like $40k-50k (realistically) which is probably above the range for a ramen profitable founder but certain well within range of most of the middle class to upper-middle class such that I wouldn't consider it an expensive luxury toy.

"a model 3 is something like $40k-50k (realistically)"

The currently "available" versions start at $44K, and features (seriously, paying $1k for 'non-black' paint?) can easily push that to over $60K.

I took delivery of the Model 3 a couple weeks ago. IMO it’s going to be a phenomenal car even with just the base model (ie no autopilot, no leather, no larger battery.) I suggest test driving when able to see what I’m talking about. The instant torque, the balance and stability of the car. It’s just a fun driving experience. Coupled with the safety of the car and the integrated infotainment/controls in the large screen, there’s no car can compare.

So the base model really is 35k. If you’re in California, you get 2500 tax credit + 7500 federal. That’s 25k + tax. Sure it’s not something everyone can afford but definitely not in the expensive luxury toy range. IMO it’s more in the “deal of a lifetime” category than the “expensive luxury toy” category.

Federal tax credit will soon go away. I doubt in this political climate that it will be renewed.

Actually, the Federal tax credit was supposed to disappear in the tax bill, but like magic, when the smoke cleared and the dust settled at the end of the all-Republican final negotiations, it was unchanged. I think you misunderstand the current political climate. It's more likely that the phase-out will disappear.

Most Silicon Valley founders are poorer than the typical Silicon Valley engineer.

I wonder how much of Tesla’s problems are because of Musk’s ADD: You have SpaceX, The Boaring Company, Solar City, Tesla Betteries, multiple electric car lines, and now a truck and semi, HyperLoop, OpenAI, and probably a dozen more projects we don’t yet know about. Any one of these would be incredibly hard for any uber genius and time on any one of these is time away from something else. To what degree can you do it all and helicopter in to run the company?

There is no doubt one company would succeed better if he gave it his full attention.

But this is a great example of the Pareto principle 80/20 rule. With his last 2% of effort he could engineer the next Tesla car. Or he could get maybe half as far as one of these geniuses on a new vision alone. If this is anywhere close to being true you can have 7-8 companies with very minimal sacrifice.

> The Model Y or whatever the hell will have relatively low technical and production risk as a result.

So I take it that the Model 3 manufacturing line issues are now solved?

It will reach volume production before the model 3 by that calendar.

Hopefully the interior of this model does not look like s* too.

This common comment is funny to me because I _like_ Tesla's design sensibilities for their interiors. I'll be the first to say the fit, finish, and materials could all be better, but what they are doing visually is clean and minimal, which I really like.

All that said, they hired Anders Bell away from Volvo a while ago specifically to help with interior quality. This may be the first project that really has his mark on it.

Needs more physical knobs.

I find the knobs on the steering wheel to be fine on the S.

It’s clean but feels like a Hyundai and that is in the best case scenario, which works for the model 3 especially if they can bring it’s price down even more but for the model s it’s a bit shameful.

Have you been inside an actual model 3? Or are you basing your comment on pics?

I got ours a couple of weeks ago and it’s definitely not like a Hyundai. The interior is very clean, modern, far superior to any other car I’ve been in. My first thoughts when I got in was— the BMW 3 series is dead. My second thought was, they better refresh the Model S interior to match this asap because the Model S looks dated compared to it.

Aside from the better look, it seems like the build quality has made significant advancements too, yeah? (I've yet to sit in a Model 3.) The Model S squeaks and rattles like a 1980s Oldsmobile!

We also have an older build Model S. Though I didn't experience any squeaks with the S, the Model 3 does seem much more solid and very well built.

Here's a pretty good review comparing the S with the 3: http://teslaweekly.com/my-initial-impressions-on-the-model-3...

My S doesn't squeak or rattle. From the various complaints I'm sure Tesla has built some that do, but you might be over-generalizing a little.

I have a Hyundai and Model S. They don’t feel remotely similar. The Hyundai feels like a relic from the past and I only bought it in 2015

I get this is a subjective opinion, but I happened to be in a tesla store this past weekend. They had a model x on the floor. The seat color chosen? WHITE. It was filthy and generally looked awful, not from a design perspective but a wear and tear perspective. I would have hoped they put more thought into their showroom than to put a color that amplifies dirt and grime on the seat.

That's surprising. The white is not a leather, but a synthetic material. I heard it wears really well with minimal to no staining. I guess in a showroom, it gets more wear than normal.

Funny, I'd guess it gets much less wear than normal. Showroom cars are sat in for a couple of hours in total at best. Cars on the road do many more hours in the same timespan.

I’m surprised somewhat less by that and more by the fact that the staff isn’t doing a better job keeping them clean.

After all, how dirty could a typical Tesla storegoer be? I can’t imagine the answer to that would be “very”.

A new pair of dark-coloured jeans is enough to mess up light coloured seats; it's probably not 'dirt' in the traditional sense. (I agree with you that the staff should be ensuring the showroom stock is spotless.)

You'd be surprised. And what makes you think that the only person coming through a store in the largest mall in the city of Houston is necessarily a Tesla shopper. But largely, just repeated entry and exit into these showroom vehicles probably simulates 5 years of wear for every year they sit.

> And what makes you think that the only person coming through a store in the largest mall in the city of Houston is necessarily a Tesla shopper.

I don’t. I said “Tesla storegoer”. If a person enters a mall in which there is a Tesla store, they do not become a “Tesla storegoer” if they don’t enter...the Tesla store.

I can't comment on the physical comfort or functionality of the Model 3 since I haven't sat in one or driven it, but visually I think it looks amazing inside. I love the clean, minimalist look. It really does "look like a spaceship". I love how wide open and clear it is. It looks modern. I'm a nerd, I want to feel like I'm in the future, and the Model 3 does that.

I'd prefer that interior to the one in the S\X, so in fact the Y sounds like the perfect car for me.

However, this does hinge on having good steering wheel controls for things like climate control and audio, and large touch targets on the screen for anything not on the wheel - messing with a fiddly touchscreen while driving is no good.

I have heard that there is a lack of storage space inside the S\X, and that the overall build quality of some parts could be improved - we'll see how that goes with the 3 and future S\Xs.

The S and X have full climate control and audio on the steering wheel buttons. You might also find that you mess with the audio a lot less when you're listening to Internet radio.

There are a ton of aftermarket storage solutions if you like a big hump. I don't want that much stuff up front, so I didn't end up buying one.

That's quite subjective. It's not as "fancy" as other cars, sure. And not as much as some people would expect, given the price.

What I'd like to know is: how well does it age? Many "luxury" cars have fancy materials which get damaged rather easily.

My wife and I are in the market for an EV, but the thing is, even the Model 3 is a bit big for a car to drive around the city and all the tiny cars I've looked at have rubbish batteries.

If Tesla did a small, two-seater city car, with an okay trunk and a decent battery I'd probably buy it.

I don't think anyone is planning on selling that car anytime soon, so you're out of luck. The Smart brand is going all electric in the US, but the battery will probably be too small for what you want. No one else is planning a 2-seater, except for very high-end cars.

There are cars being sold outside the US as well. Several big brand car manufacturers try to make that car.

They’re just not good. Yet.

Chevy Bolt. 238 mile range, size of a Honda Fit.

The "facelift" S is your new generation of the S.

Car makers typically alternate between "all new" and "facelift". In Tesla's case, the facelift was the minor styling change they did a few years ago, which most noticeably got rid of the fake grill opening. So they've done their facelift - time to change the sheet metal.

Yipee. I can't wait to buy one.

So after Musk’s juvenile model line is complete where do they go on from there?

Model C A/4 and R?

It's an interesting strategy for sure. Instead of solving the problems facing the current lineup just add another car and a whole new set of problems.

Actually, no. This is how stuff happens in the grown-up world where companies can't just drop everything because one product has problems.

Sure, Elon Musk likes to sail close to the wind, but if this were any other car manufacturer, nobody would bat an eyelid.

What problems, or are you just unfamiliar with Elon Musk's PR strategy of always underestimating delivery dates yet always delivering in the end?

Well, Tesla's whole deal is applying the software startup mindset to manufacturing, right?

Fake it till you make it.

I can't wait till this comes out. We're currently stuck between a 3, S and X. I have two 3's on order but the 3 isn't going to be big enough for my wife who schleps kids around all day (SAHM & very active homeschooler). The X is too expensive, it's more expensive than a decked out Cadillac Escalade (her current but aging ride). The S is nice but not as easy to get in and out of if you have a child in a car seat. A crossover would presumably ride a little higher than an S and be roughly as spacious inside as an X, and hopefully will be more minimalist inside and lower performance like the 3 bringing the price down.