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A fair objection, but as you well know, it takes work to extract information. Rarely will anyone show you their hand. If you never lift a rock, you never find the snake below, but the snake may exist below nonetheless. And if that rock has had a snake below it before then maybe you don't put your hands underneath to lift the rock.

But you can win me over trivially. Take your union. Add a single immutable tenet: This union will always act to increase legal immigration in America. Now you have a union I will support. After all, if you're pro-immigration, this is merely a formalization of your position. It's a win-win.



> But you can win me over trivially

I think you will find that most unions support immigration, and provide protections for immigrants.

For example, the largest union in the US, the AFL-CIO, is currently running a "Protect All Workers" campaign[1] specifically for immigrant protections:

> In recent weeks, the federal government took vital steps to address our national health emergency and mitigate its economic damage by passing a series of COVID-19 bills. Unfortunately, millions of immigrant workers who help to build, serve and feed our nation were excluded from the essential coverage and benefits in these bills.

> Congress is currently at work on a fourth COVID-19 bill, and it is vital this one addresses the needs of our nation’s immigrants. It should lift immigrant restrictions on emergency Medicaid testing and treatment, extend work permits for essential workers under the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals and temporary protected status programs, provide cash payments and other vital benefits to all taxpayers, and halt immigration policies that elevate risk in our communities.

I highly doubt that any of the anti-immigrant posters in the H1B thread would agree with any of those benefits being given to immigrants of any status.

Though that might seem superficial and only skin deep, however the AFL-CIO has been promoting immigration reform for years[2].

Here's what they say about immigration on their site[3]:

> Since our nation’s founding, immigrants and refugees have enriched the fabric of our communities, our workforce and our labor movement. Like it was for generations of immigrants before, the labor movement is the natural home for new immigrants struggling to achieve economic security and win social justice, and our commitment to building an immigration system that represents the needs and interests of all working people is fierce and unwavering.

> The only way to stop the race to the bottom in wages and standards is for working people of all races, religions and immigration status to stand together and demand an end to policies that put profits over people. The entire workforce suffers when millions struggle to support their families without a way to speak up on the job, and ramping up fear in our workplaces only serves to increase exploitation. Instead of deporting immigrants, we need to ensure that all working people have rights on the job and are able to exercise them without fear of retaliation. Enacting meaningful immigration reform is critical to our long-term efforts to lift labor standards and empower workers, and the labor movement will continue to stand in solidarity with all working people.

> America's labor movement is never backing down, not an inch, on its commitment to full immigrant rights in this country.” -Tefere Gebre

> $900B: The amount in lost revenue over 10 years that mass deportation would cost the federal government.

[1] https://actionnetwork.org/letters/protect-all-workers-3

[2] https://aflcio.org/resolution/labor-movements-principles-com...

[3] https://aflcio.org/issues/immigration


It is, however, worth noting that historically unions were virulently anti-immigrant, seeing them as competitors who lowered wages. Their change in stance is relatively recent and largely involuntary because their attempts to suppress immigration collapsed.

Given the anti H1-B sentiment often displayed in various places, should any of the foreign-born here trust that a software developer union would remain pro-immigration? I wouldn't; there's too much historical precedent.


The AFL are the guys I allude to in the story of Avalon/Peru/Excelsior. Those who would flip from enemy to friend when they are weak can flip from friend to enemy when they are strong just as easily. I'm willing to believe, but no core tenet of the AFL-CIO is considered immutable. Given that, and given that they shift with the breeze, perhaps you can see why their words ring hollow.

Today, they feel this. When tomorrow they must cast us aside to win something more essential to them, will they stand strong? They didn't in the past. Why would they now?

Even 2 million strong they are subject to Stolper-Samuelson.


How many modern day organizations have not changed their policies after a century of change? How many of them do you yourself belong to?


None. And I am happy to belong to many who have changed. But I accept each one with care. As you can see.




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